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Miami Condo Collapse


Foxx

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MothersMilk

Wolf Blitzer interviewed a Fins player a few minutes ago.. the players are helping out in some capacity. Wolf then mentions that the Dolphins aren't his favorite team, but the Bills are. Kind of cool but also kind of not cool... just seemed like bad timing with what all is going on down there.

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My theory of the immediate cause of the disaster is driven by the timing of the collapse in the middle of the night.

 

The columns were obviously in crap shape and totally deteriorating, but if it was the only reason, we'd see far more building collapses when rebar rusted out.   There had to be some kind of lateral force exerted on the structure, and my theory is that some drunk idiot hit a garage column in the basement at 2AM, and here we are.

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RochesterRob
9 minutes ago, GG1 said:

My theory of the immediate cause of the disaster is driven by the timing of the collapse in the middle of the night.

 

The columns were obviously in crap shape and totally deteriorating, but if it was the only reason, we'd see far more building collapses when rebar rusted out.   There had to be some kind of lateral force exerted on the structure, and my theory is that some drunk idiot hit a garage column in the basement at 2AM, and here we are.

  Salt water air such as what drifts in off of the ocean is no friend of steel, concrete, or wood.  I wonder what the future is for similar buildings in Miami?  Seaside property being valuable and scarce often lead to demolition of buildings back during the 1960's-1990's to make room for the high rises that are there now.  It was less of a worry years ago if you had a failure of a building that was a single story or two story versus going up in the air a few hundred feet.

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4 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Salt water air such as what drifts in off of the ocean is no friend of steel, concrete, or wood.  I wonder what the future is for similar buildings in Miami?  Seaside property being valuable and scarce often lead to demolition of buildings back during the 1960's-1990's to make room for the high rises that are there now.  It was less of a worry years ago if you had a failure of a building that was a single story or two story versus going up in the air a few hundred feet.

 

Things changed after Andrew. Heck, we retrofitted windows and they had to meet hurricane standards (unless we wanted the pulldowns). Hurricane Matthew (which was "only" a 2 when it got to us) destroyed our patio, but the windows were fine.

 

Florida now updates the codes every few years. I would expect new buildings are built very differently today than when this one was built 40 years ago.

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RochesterRob
23 minutes ago, Ann said:

 

Things changed after Andrew. Heck, we retrofitted windows and they had to meet hurricane standards (unless we wanted the pulldowns). Hurricane Matthew (which was "only" a 2 when it got to us) destroyed our patio, but the windows were fine.

 

Florida now updates the codes every few years. I would expect new buildings are built very differently today than when this one was built 40 years ago.

  The process of corrosion is very basic science.  Take a bucket and keep it full of salt water.  Then place a fan to one side to blow continuously onto a piece of steel, concrete, or wood.  Any of those materials will suffer deterioration over time.  Painting such surfaces helps but even paint deteriorates over time.  Traditional building materials are very prone to corrosion.  I don't know what is out there for modern synthetics but if available they would most likely add greatly to the construction cost.  Since any builder is doing construction for a profit then the added cost has to be recovered through the lease or rent.  Who is going to pay a greatly increased rent rate especially when most do not understand why any superior material is used?  

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32 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  The process of corrosion is very basic science.  Take a bucket and keep it full of salt water.  Then place a fan to one side to blow continuously onto a piece of steel, concrete, or wood.  Any of those materials will suffer deterioration over time.  Painting such surfaces helps but even paint deteriorates over time.  Traditional building materials are very prone to corrosion.  I don't know what is out there for modern synthetics but if available they would most likely add greatly to the construction cost.  Since any builder is doing construction for a profit then the added cost has to be recovered through the lease or rent.  Who is going to pay a greatly increased rent rate especially when most do not understand why any superior material is used?  

 

They do make "ocean" this and that. When we installed a new air conditioner and heat exchanger, they were specifically made due to the salt (recommended within 5 miles of the ocean). They degrade much slower than standard air conditioner + heat exchanger units.

 

I would guess there are many other materials that are made for "ocean" living.

 

 

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Letter from the condo board president practically begging people to get over arguing about the money.  They dicked around for 3 years after the Engineer's report and really weren't much closer to getting the critical work done.  That's the problem with organizations that try to make everyone happy.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/miami-area-building-collapse-condo-board-president-warned-of-need-for-repairs-in-april-letter-11624930495?mod=hp_lead_pos5

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RochesterRob
6 minutes ago, Ann said:

 

They do make "ocean" this and that. When we installed a new air conditioner and heat exchanger, they were specifically made due to the salt (recommended within 5 miles of the ocean). They degrade much slower than standard air conditioner + heat exchanger units.

 

I would guess there are many other materials that are made for "ocean" living.

 

 

  Interesting in how elevation for one plays into the desalination of water.  That the rain that we receive inland from the ocean carries no salt.  Also, something such as a car in Miami can be less prone to salty air versus a building.  That the moisture and the salt in it can more readily exit a car body than being deep into a building structure.  

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That happens even here with salt from road salt.  When I was on grad school at Roswell Park, the parking ramp was closed for about a year from all the salt put on the concrete . It ended up corroding the rebar.

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RochesterRob
31 minutes ago, Wacka said:

That happens even here with salt from road salt.  When I was on grad school at Roswell Park, the parking ramp was closed for about a year from all the salt put on the concrete . It ended up corroding the rebar.

  The paint is already corroding off of the recent bridge work on I490 and I90 near Rochester, NY.  The bridges will most not likely see the lifetime of the bridges that they replaced which went up during the 1950's, 1960's, and 1970's.

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2 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Interesting in how elevation for one plays into the desalination of water.  That the rain that we receive inland from the ocean carries no salt.  Also, something such as a car in Miami can be less prone to salty air versus a building.  That the moisture and the salt in it can more readily exit a car body than being deep into a building structure.  


We made a decision not to leave a vehicle year-round at our condo due to the salt. 🤷‍♀️

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RochesterRob
9 minutes ago, Ann said:


We made a decision not to leave a vehicle year-round at our condo due to the salt. 🤷‍♀️

  Makes sense if the vehicle sits for extended periods.  Movement of the vehicle through low humidity air helps dry it out quick.  I've been told that New Orleans is actually worse for salt water air.  Not going to either city any time soon.

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Just now, RochesterRob said:

  Makes sense if the vehicle sits for extended periods.  Movement of the vehicle through low humidity air helps dry it out quick.  I've been told that New Orleans is actually worse for salt water air.  Not going to either city any time soon.


We were not down in Miami, we were in St Augustine (unincorporated St John's county).  Salt water does present a lot of issues and problems. 
 

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Good animated video from a structural engineer with his take on how the collapse happened.

 

 

 

 

Longer analysis:

 

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