Which is the best Bills team ever?

[Arm of Harm]

Below is a comparison between this year's Bills team vs. the teams of the early '90s.

 

Offensive line. This year's Bills OL looks to be improved from last year. But the early '90s Bills had Kent Hull, Jim Ritcher, Will Wolford, and Howard Ballard. Advantage: early '90s Bills.

 

Quarterback. Jim Kelly was a great quarterback. But if I had to choose between drafting a young Kelly and a young Allen, I'm taking Allen. Advantage: this year's Bills.

 

TEs. Dawson Knox is a significantly better tight end than Keith McKeller. O.J. Howard is a lot better than Butch Rolle. Advantage: this year's Bills.

 

WRs. Stephon Diggs is a very good player. Andre Reed was even better. The early '90s Bills had an aging but effective James Lofton (HOF) as their number two/deep burner. I'd take him over Gabe Davis, even though Davis is good. When healthy, Crowder is better than Don Beebe. Advantage: early '90s Bills.

 

RBs. This year's Bills team has Singletary and James Cook. The early '90s Bills had a young Thurman Thomas (HOF) and Kenneth Davis. Advantage: early '90s Bills.

 

DEs. This year's Bills team has Rousseau, an aging but effective von Miller, and some other good players. The early '90s Bills had Bruce Smith in his prime, not to mention Phil Hansen. Advantage: early '90s Bills.

 

Interior DL. The early '90s Bills had Jeff Wright as their starting NT. This year's Bills team has Ed Oliver and other good DTs. Advantage: this year's Bills.

 

Linebackers. This year's Bills team has Matt Milano and Tre Edmunds. The early '90s Bills had Cornelius Bennett, Daryl Tally, and Shane Conlan. Advantage: the early '90s Bills.

 

Secondary. The early '90s Bills had players like Nate Odoms and Henry Jones. Once Tre White is done healing from injury, this year's Bills team will have a stacked secondary. Advantage: this year's Bills.

 

That's five areas where the early '90s Bills were better, and four where this year's Bills team is better. Which team do you think is better overall?

[Ann]

1990 Bills. They should have won the Super Bowl. I am hopeful this year's team ends up being better and wins the Super Bowl. 

[Uncle Joe]

6 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

Interior DL. The early '90s Bills had Jeff Wright as their starting NT. This year's Bills team has Ed Oliver and other good DTs. Advantage: this year's Bills.

Tom Sestak, Ron McDole, Tom Day and Jim Dunaway were pretty stout back in the day.
Interior DL - 1964 Bills  (taking into consideration what the game was vs what it has become)

 

From Wiki:
 

The 1964 Buffalo Bills season was the team’s fifth season. Buffalo was 12–2 in the regular season and won the first of two consecutive championships in the American Football League.

The 1964 Bills' defense set an AFL record by giving up the fewest rushing yards in league history, with only 918, or 65.5 yards per game.^[1] They also led the league in points allowed (242), total yards allowed (3,878), first downs surrendered (206), and rushing touchdowns allowed (four).^[2]

Buffalo's offense also led the AFL in total yards (5,206), passing yards (2,040) and total points (400).<sup>[3]

I</sup> 

[snafu]

56 minutes ago, Uncle Joe said:

Tom Sestak, Ron McDole, Tom Day and Jim Dunaway were pretty stout back in the day.
Interior DL - 1964 Bills  (taking into consideration what the game was vs what it has become)

 

From Wiki:
 

The 1964 Buffalo Bills season was the team’s fifth season. Buffalo was 12–2 in the regular season and won the first of two consecutive championships in the American Football League.

The 1964 Bills' defense set an AFL record by giving up the fewest rushing yards in league history, with only 918, or 65.5 yards per game.^[1] They also led the league in points allowed (242), total yards allowed (3,878), first downs surrendered (206), and rushing touchdowns allowed (four).^[2]

Buffalo's offense also led the AFL in total yards (5,206), passing yards (2,040) and total points (400).<sup>[3]

I</sup> 

 

 

Dad...is that you?!?

 

 

[Spartacus]

2022

 

UNDEFEATED, so far

[Spartacus]

10 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

Below is a comparison between this year's Bills team vs. the teams of the early '90s.

 

Offensive line. This year's Bills OL looks to be improved from last year. But the early '90s Bills had Kent Hull, Jim Ritcher, Will Wolford, and Howard Ballard. Advantage: early '90s Bills.

 

Quarterback. Jim Kelly was a great quarterback. But if I had to choose between drafting a young Kelly and a young Allen, I'm taking Allen. Advantage: this year's Bills.

 

TEs. Dawson Knox is a significantly better tight end than Keith McKeller. O.J. Howard is a lot better than Butch Rolle. Advantage: this year's Bills.

 

WRs. Stephon Diggs is a very good player. Andre Reed was even better. The early '90s Bills had an aging but effective James Lofton (HOF) as their number two/deep burner. I'd take him over Gabe Davis, even though Davis is good. When healthy, Crowder is better than Don Beebe. Advantage: early '90s Bills.

 

RBs. This year's Bills team has Singletary and James Cook. The early '90s Bills had a young Thurman Thomas (HOF) and Kenneth Davis. Advantage: early '90s Bills.

 

DEs. This year's Bills team has Rousseau, an aging but effective von Miller, and some other good players. The early '90s Bills had Bruce Smith in his prime, not to mention Phil Hansen. Advantage: early '90s Bills.

 

Interior DL. The early '90s Bills had Jeff Wright as their starting NT. This year's Bills team has Ed Oliver and other good DTs. Advantage: this year's Bills.

 

Linebackers. This year's Bills team has Matt Milano and Tre Edmunds. The early '90s Bills had Cornelius Bennett, Daryl Tally, and Shane Conlan. Advantage: the early '90s Bills.

 

Secondary. The early '90s Bills had players like Nate Odoms and Henry Jones. Once Tre White is done healing from injury, this year's Bills team will have a stacked secondary. Advantage: this year's Bills.

 

That's five areas where the early '90s Bills were better, and four where this year's Bills team is better. Which team do you think is better overall?

 

coaching heavily favors the 2022 version

 

Walt Corey was an albatross

consistently under utilized oneof the NFL's greatest pass rushers

Marv was no more than a motivator

after Marchibroda left, the staff was pretty weak

 

 

[Arm of Harm]

39 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

 

coaching heavily favors the 2022 version

 

Walt Corey was an albatross

consistently under utilized oneof the NFL's greatest pass rushers

Marv was no more than a motivator

after Marchibroda left, the staff was pretty weak

 

 

 

I've never heard Walt Corey described as a genius. There's a reason for that! That being said, I'd take Corey in a heartbeat over Leslie Frazier.

 

As for head coach, you are right to say Marv was no more than a motivator. But is Sean McDermott more than a motivator? At least as of last postseason, he'd done nothing to fix the Bills' defensive coaching woes against the Chiefs.

 

After Marchibroda left, the early '90s Bills offensive coaching was uninspired at best. But when Marchibroda was still around, the K-gun offense was unstoppable. You look at the way the Bills destroyed the Raiders in the AFC Championship Game. In the Super Bowl, however, Bill Belichick found a way to hold Marchibroda's offense in check.

 

This past postseason, Allen achieved the highest QB rating of any QB in a postseason ever. That says something positive not just about Allen, but also about the offensive coaching staff. I have a ton of confidence in this year's offensive coaching staff. I'm very confident it's better than the post-Marchibroda offensive coaching staffs of the early '90s. We'll see how it compares to Marchibroda himself.

[Deranged Rhino]

Contrarian take: I love those 90s teams, and there are unquestionable studs all throughout those rosters. But I'm thinking this generation of athletes is better - due to advances in training, diet, rule changes in the sport itself, etc.

 

But it always comes down to QB. I love Jim. Kelly is the man, but Allen's a different animal - and because of that, it's hard not to pick the current roster. 

 

*Caveat: That is assuming they were being asked to play by today's rules. If they were forced to play by the rules of the 90s, aka stone age football, then I'd have a different answer. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Deranged Rhino

[Spartacus]

1 hour ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

I've never heard Walt Corey described as a genius. There's a reason for that! That being said, I'd take Corey in a heartbeat over Leslie Frazier.

 

 At least as of last postseason, he'd done nothing to fix the Bills' defensive coaching woes against the Chiefs.

 

 

of course, you would!

 

Corey had 2 of the best rushers in the NFL in Bennet and Bruce and managed to neutralize them with scheme by playing a 3-4 with a miniature nose tackle, and playing read and react. 

 

in a passing dominant league with no premier pass rushers, the current Bills D has more than held its own

 

never missing a chance to be wrong

[Alaska Darin]

4 hours ago, Spartacus said:

 

coaching heavily favors the 2022 version

 

Walt Corey was an albatross

consistently under utilized oneof the NFL's greatest pass rushers

 

 

 

Two of them, really.  Bennett was a great pass rusher who could have put up ridiculous numbers with a more creative/aggressive scheme.

 

Apologies...I didn't see your later post until this one was typed.

[Arm of Harm]

3 hours ago, Spartacus said:

of course, you would!

 

Corey had 2 of the best rushers in the NFL in Bennet and Bruce and managed to neutralize them with scheme by playing a 3-4 with a miniature nose tackle, and playing read and react. 

 

in a passing dominant league with no premier pass rushers, the current Bills D has more than held its own

 

never missing a chance to be wrong

 

What was Walt Corey's worst postseason meltdown? I'd argue it was the first Super Bowl against the Cowboys, in which the Bills lost 54-17. The Cowboys had beaten the 49ers 30-20 in the NFC Championship game, demonstrating that it was possible for a defense to hold that offense to 30 points. The Cowboys had more talent on their offense than the Bills had on their defense, so you'd expect the Cowboys offense to do well. But you don't necessarily expect it to be 54 points of doing well--not even with the turnovers the Bills' offense committed.

 

What was Leslie Frazier's worst defensive meltdown in the postseason? That would be the AFC Championship Game against the Chiefs. In that game his defense only forced one stop, where a stop is defined as a punt or turnover. KC's lone punt of the game was because of a dropped pass. Frazier's second-worst postseason meltdown also came against the Chiefs. In this past divisional round his defense forced just two stops. During their postseason game against the Chiefs, the Steelers forced six defensive stops. Granted, the Steelers had more defensive talent than the Bills. The Bengals did not have a significantly more talented defense than the Bills, yet they also forced six stops in the AFC Championship Game. That's 3x better than Frazier's defense was able to manage.

 

Walt Corey's defense would have been a lot better if you'd replaced Jeff Wright with a guy like Fred Smerlas or Ted Washington. Whereas, the soft zone Leslie Frazier trotted out against the Chiefs is going to be easily picked apart by an elite quarterback. That's a problem with the scheme, not a problem with the players.

[Spartacus]

16 minutes ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

What was Walt Corey's worst postseason meltdown? I'd argue it was the first Super Bowl against the Cowboys, in which the Bills lost 54-17. The Cowboys had beaten the 49ers 30-20 in the NFC Championship game, demonstrating that it was possible for a defense to hold that offense to 30 points. The Cowboys had more talent on their offense than the Bills had on their defense, so you'd expect the Cowboys offense to do well. But you don't necessarily expect it to be 54 points of doing well--not even with the turnovers the Bills' offense committed.

 

What was Leslie Frazier's worst defensive meltdown in the postseason? That would be the AFC Championship Game against the Chiefs. In that game his defense only forced one stop, where a stop is defined as a punt or turnover. KC's lone punt of the game was because of a dropped pass. Frazier's second-worst postseason meltdown also came against the Chiefs. In this past divisional round his defense forced just two stops. During their postseason game against the Chiefs, the Steelers forced six defensive stops. Granted, the Steelers had more defensive talent than the Bills. The Bengals did not have a significantly more talented defense than the Bills, yet they also forced six stops in the AFC Championship Game. That's 3x better than Frazier's defense was able to manage.

 

Walt Corey's defense would have been a lot better if you'd replaced Jeff Wright with a guy like Fred Smerlas or Ted Washington. Whereas, the soft zone Leslie Frazier trotted out against the Chiefs is going to be easily picked apart by an elite quarterback. That's a problem with the scheme, not a problem with the players.

Walt Corey should never have utiilzed a 3-4, especially with a midget nose tackle

too easy to key on Bruce

few stunts to free him up

Bruce should have average over 20 sacks per yr

 

Corey was lazy and incompetent

 

Marv was even more responsible for keeping him

then hring crap when Mrchibroda left

 

your obsesion with the KC game must keep you up at night thinking of new ways to force that crap in to new threads

 

give it up - KC had a really good offense

 

[Arm of Harm]

6 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Walt Corey should never have utiilzed a 3-4, especially with a midget nose tackle

too easy to key on Bruce

few stunts to free him up

Bruce should have average over 20 sacks per yr

 

Corey was lazy and incompetent

 

Marv was even more responsible for keeping him

then hring crap when Mrchibroda left

 

your obsesion with the KC game must keep you up at night thinking of new ways to force that crap in to new threads

 

give it up - KC had a really good offense

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you've written about Walt Corey and his defense. I don't agree with the 20 sacks a year thing for Bruce. Wade Phillips became the Bills defensive coordinator when Bruce was still in his prime. That did not result in Bruce getting 20+ sacks a year. It did, however, result in Bryce Paup getting 17.5 sacks in a season, along with defensive MVP.

 

I believe that Leslie Frazier's defense works well against mediocre offenses, but utterly fails when matched up against a team with an elite passing attack. How many times has Frazier's defense had a postseason game against a team with an elite passing offense? Two. What was the outcome? Complete defensive meltdown both times. If you look at the Chiefs' ten most recent games, 80% of the defenses they'd faced were able to generate more than the two stops we saw from Frazier's defense. Frazier's defense did worse against the Chiefs than almost any other defense.

 

Walt Corey had postseason defensive meltdowns too, such as the first Super Bowl against the Cowboys. But--and this is key--there were also times when his defense played well in the postseason against elite quarterbacks or elite passing attacks. The same cannot be said of Leslie Frazier. If Walt Corey is your defensive coordinator, you should probably be looking for an upgrade. But Leslie Frazier should never be mistaken for an upgrade to Walt Corey.

[Nanker]

22 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Walt Corey should never have utiilzed a 3-4

Corey was lazy and incompetent

and he chewed a swizzle stick!

 

22 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Marv was even more responsible for keeping him

then hring crap when Mrchibroda left  

 

Jimbo was the de facto OC when Ted left for “greener pastures.” (And Wolfolk was stolen by Indy - whom I still detest to this day on two accounts. 

[KD in CA]

1 hour ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

What was Walt Corey's worst postseason meltdown? I'd argue it was the first Super Bowl against the Cowboys, in which the Bills lost 54-17. The Cowboys had beaten the 49ers 30-20 in the NFC Championship game, demonstrating that it was possible for a defense to hold that offense to 30 points. The Cowboys had more talent on their offense than the Bills had on their defense, so you'd expect the Cowboys offense to do well. But you don't necessarily expect it to be 54 points of doing well--not even with the turnovers the Bills' offense committed.

In fairness, didn’t we turn the ball over something like eight times in that game?

 

[Arm of Harm]

8 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Contrarian take: I love those 90s teams, and there are unquestionable studs all throughout those rosters. But I'm thinking this generation of athletes is better - due to advances in training, diet, rule changes in the sport itself, etc.

 

But it always comes down to QB. I love Jim. Kelly is the man, but Allen's a different animal - and because of that, it's hard not to pick the current roster. 

 

*Caveat: That is assuming they were being asked to play by today's rules. If they were forced to play by the rules of the 90s, aka stone age football, then I'd have a different answer. 

 

I'd like to focus specifically on the Allen/Kelly comparison portion of your post. Passing rules have changed considerably between Kelly's era and Allen's. Instead of comparing the two QBs directly, you maybe compare each QB to the best QBs of his era. You compare Kelly to Montana, Young, Favre, Marino, and Moon. You compare Allen to guys like Brady and Rodgers.

 

In Allen's first year, he was put in about the worst possible situation a QB could be in. (Horrible OL, horrible WRs, etc.) But by his third year he was playing at an elite level. Normally a season like that would be an MVP season, except that Aaron Rodgers did an even better job that year than Allen. You look at a year like that, or your look at Allen's recent postseason, and it's very easy to conclude that Allen is playing at the same level as the best QBs of his era.

 

Now let's do the same for Kelly. Kelly's QB rating and yards per attempt were fairly similar to the best QBs of his era. Not a huge difference there. But, the best QBs of Kelly's era were in pass-oriented offenses. The Bills offense was more of a 50/50 mix between run and pass.

 

At first glance, that 50/50 mix may seem a bit puzzling. If your RB gets about 4 yards a carry, and if your QB gets 7.4 yards per pass attempt, why not pass the ball a lot more often than you run? Wouldn't it make sense to typically go for the higher yardage plays?

 

Do you want to improve your QB's passer rating and yards per attempt? A cheap, easy way to accomplish that is to reduce his number of pass attempts. Run the ball more often. When you compare Kelly's per-attempt stats to those of the best QBs of his era, it's apples to oranges. The best QBs of Kelly's era were in pass-oriented offenses, and Kelly was not. While Kelly was a great quarterback, there nonetheless existed a significant gap between him and a QB such as Joe Montana or Steve Young. 

 

On the somewhat rare occasions in his career when he's actually had good pass protection, Allen has achieved greatness. Greatness comparable to the best QBs of his era. Based on that, you could say that Allen is a significant step up from Kelly.