[positional grouping] Bills Offensive Line

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

31 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

Yes, let's use the aberration to every rule in the world as the reason to reach for a player based on position value.  It took Peters literally YEARS to get on the field at LT on a team that was fielding such names as Mike Gandy, Melvin Fowler, Terrance Pennington, etc. and had a rookie QB starting.

 

If you're listening to Beane, he's basically telling you the strength of this draft is after Round One.  Don't be surprised if there's a run on CBs and WRs when the BILLS trade out of the first round because that's a far more likely scenario than trading up.  If there were special LTs in this draft, they wouldn't be falling into the teens because NFL GMs covet that position on almost the same level as QB and Edge Rusher. 

 

You're sitting here chirping that Dawkins isn't a good LT (which is kinda funny in itself) then saying you can trade him to go up in the draft, all the while having to eat $12M in salary.  To say nothing of what that does to the locker room.

 

 

I thought we left the "he sucks, but has trade value" arguments behind ATOP.

[Arm of Harm]

10 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

Yes, let's use the aberration to every rule in the world as the reason to reach for a player based on position value.  It took Peters literally YEARS to get on the field at LT on a team that was fielding such names as Mike Gandy, Melvin Fowler, Terrance Pennington, etc. and had a rookie QB starting.

 

If you're listening to Beane, he's basically telling you the strength of this draft is after Round One.  Don't be surprised if there's a run on CBs and WRs when the BILLS trade out of the first round because that's a far more likely scenario than trading up.  If there were special LTs in this draft, they wouldn't be falling into the teens because NFL GMs covet that position on almost the same level as QB and Edge Rusher. 

 

You're sitting here chirping that Dawkins isn't a good LT (which is kinda funny in itself) then saying you can trade him to go up in the draft, all the while having to eat $12M in salary.  To say nothing of what that does to the locker room.

 

 

According to PFF, Dawkins is the 21st ranked OT. Granted that was for the 2020 season, but his grade does not seem to have changed much during 2021. There are 64 total starting spots for OTs. The guy who's 21st best has definite value in a trade. But, it's not like 21st best is so good that there's no possible room for an upgrade. Especially if the new LT has a significantly higher athletic score than Dawkins.

 

On the other hand, this might not be the year to try to upgrade Dawkins. The right player may not be there, even if the Bills were willing to trade up. Dawkins' value in a trade could increase, due to the coaching of Kromer. Maybe Kromer does a good enough job upping Dawkins' game that the gap between Dawkins and the top 10 OTs is eliminated or greatly narrowed. In which case, using him as a long-term answer becomes a significantly more tempting option.

 

As for the locker room argument: shortly before the start of the regular season, Bill Belichick released Lawyer Milloy for failing to take a pay cut. Milloy was a team captain and very popular among the Patriots. Normally salary cap casualties are released in the early spring. The fact Belichick waited until many months later than usual for something like this intensified the effect on the locker room. At first that effect was devastating, and the Bills rolled to a 31-0 victory over the Patriots in what was dubbed as the Lawyer Milloy Bowl. But Belichick got his team back on track, and they went on to win the Super Bowl that same year.

 

Again: I'm not saying that trading up for an OT will necessarily be the Bills' best option. The goal here is to carefully consider multiple viable options, before deciding which one is best. Back in 2006, Marv and Jauron failed to do that. They wanted their first two picks to be a SS and a DT, but not necessarily in that order. By needlessly narrowing their options they failed to make optimal use of their picks. Instead of squandering the 8th overall pick on Donte Whitner, they could have used it on Jay Cutler, or on Ngata, or could have traded out of the pick so that Denver could have taken Cutler. Their pick in the 20s was used on John McCargo, an outright bust. A pick or two later Nick Mangold was taken. For many years Mangold was the best center in the league, while the Bills received mediocre play at best from the likes of Melvin Fowler. The moral of the story is that you don't want to get too fixated on one or two positions, if the draft is offering much better opportunities at other positions. That's why I feel the Bills should be open to the idea of using their first round pick on any of: OT, interior OL, CB, WR, pass rusher.

[Ann]

…

 

 

 

 

[Alaska Darin]

3 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

According to PFF, Dawkins is the 21st ranked OT. Granted that was for the 2020 season, but his grade does not seem to have changed much during 2021. There are 64 total starting spots for OTs. The guy who's 21st best has definite value in a trade. But, it's not like 21st best is so good that there's no possible room for an upgrade. Especially if the new LT has a significantly higher athletic score than Dawkins.

 

On the other hand, this might not be the year to try to upgrade Dawkins. The right player may not be there, even if the Bills were willing to trade up. Dawkins' value in a trade could increase, due to the coaching of Kromer. Maybe Kromer does a good enough job upping Dawkins' game that the gap between Dawkins and the top 10 OTs is eliminated or greatly narrowed. In which case, using him as a long-term answer becomes a significantly more tempting option.

 

As for the locker room argument: shortly before the start of the regular season, Bill Belichick released Lawyer Milloy for failing to take a pay cut. Milloy was a team captain and very popular among the Patriots. Normally salary cap casualties are released in the early spring. The fact Belichick waited until many months later than usual for something like this intensified the effect on the locker room. At first that effect was devastating, and the Bills rolled to a 31-0 victory over the Patriots in what was dubbed as the Lawyer Milloy Bowl. But Belichick got his team back on track, and they went on to win the Super Bowl that same year.

 

Again: I'm not saying that trading up for an OT will necessarily be the Bills' best option. The goal here is to carefully consider multiple viable options, before deciding which one is best. Back in 2006, Marv and Jauron failed to do that. They wanted their first two picks to be a SS and a DT, but not necessarily in that order. By needlessly narrowing their options they failed to make optimal use of their picks. Instead of squandering the 8th overall pick on Donte Whitner, they could have used it on Jay Cutler, or on Ngata, or could have traded out of the pick so that Denver could have taken Cutler. Their pick in the 20s was used on John McCargo, an outright bust. A pick or two later Nick Mangold was taken. For many years Mangold was the best center in the league, while the Bills received mediocre play at best from the likes of Melvin Fowler. The moral of the story is that you don't want to get too fixated on one or two positions, if the draft is offering much better opportunities at other positions. That's why I feel the Bills should be open to the idea of using their first round pick on any of: OT, interior OL, CB, WR, pass rusher.

You're going to have to forgive me for laughing a little at PFF's grading system because it's complete nonsense.  The assumption is the grader KNOWS what the assignment was for the specific player on every play, which invalidates everything they base the grade on.  About the only situation you can really look at is whether a guy gets beat in 1-on-1 matchups.

 

We've talked about this before but it's impossible to grade Dawkins accurately when for at least a dozen games last season the person immediately to his right was playing at an obviously below average level much of the time.  It also ignores the fact that he wasn't completely healthy and hasn't been for each of the last 2 seasons, which is probably a bigger overall concern but it's almost 100% COVID-related.  The reality is Dawkins is on an affordable deal and is approaching what is considered his physical prime.  I would put the likelihood that he's not the starting LT when the season starts at about 3% (assuming he gets there healthy, of course).

 

As for the Milloy situation, it's another aberration example that is nowhere near the rule.  The BILLS organization will never behave like Belichick's Patriots because that's not how the Pegulas, Beane, or McDermott are built.  There's a reason guys come back to Buffalo with a big smile on their face, even when they can make a lot more money elsewhere.

 

I understand where you're coming from on the drafts pre-Beane but our current GM understands team-building better than anyone we've ever had, including Polian.  Now the coaches need to stop screwing up because this roster is the best in the NFL and it was last season as well.

[IDBillzFan]

15 hours ago, Alaska Darin said:

You're going to have to forgive me for laughing a little at PFF's grading system because it's complete nonsense.  The assumption is the grader KNOWS what the assignment was for the specific player on every play, which invalidates everything they base the grade on.  About the only situation you can really look at is whether a guy gets beat in 1-on-1 matchups.

 

I genuinely wish I had just enough sports smarts and tech reach to create some obscure formula to judge and eval players so I could monetize the people posting my stats for the sake of a sports discussion. Sports fans are clickbait utopia.

 

Create something like the DAB Rate, based on some ridiculous formula like number of plays your left guard played against people wearing the number 37, and rate that player on what #37 had for breakfast that day, and only after I made my first six figures would I explain that DAB stands for DumbAssBitches.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

53 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

I genuinely wish I had just enough sports smarts and tech reach to create some obscure formula to judge and eval players so I could monetize the people posting my stats for the sake of a sports discussion. Sports fans are clickbait utopia.

 

Create something like the DAB Rate, based on some ridiculous formula like number of plays your left guard played against people wearing the number 37, and rate that player on what #37 had for breakfast that day, and only after I made my first six figures would I explain that DAB stands for DumbAssBitches.

 

You're overthinking it.  You don't need a formula.  Just create a name, rank players, claim the formula is proprietary and can't be shared, then after you make you first six figures explain what DAB stands for.

[KD in CA]

38 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

You're overthinking it.  You don't need a formula.  Just create a name, rank players, claim the formula is proprietary and can't be shared, then after you make you first six figures explain what DAB stands for.

 

So basically the BCS model.

[Ann]

Someone needs to show him the Fitz pic. It is hardcore when an opposing team's QB comes to a playoff game and gets shirtless in zero degree weather.

[TakeYouToTasker 2.0]

Spencer Brown is a fantastic Twitter follow.

 

 

[Fansince88]

On 4/22/2022 at 3:33 PM, Ann said:

Someone needs to show him the Fitz pic. It is hardcore when an opposing team's QB comes to a playoff game and gets shirtless in zero degree weather.

Personally, I would like summer first.

[Joe Miner]

3 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker 2.0 said:

Spencer Brown is a fantastic Twitter follow.

 

 

 

Were the alligators raised by Betty White?

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

19 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker 2.0 said:

Spencer Brown is a fantastic Twitter follow.

 

 

 

I'd fight Caleb Sturgis, because I'm pretty sure I could beat a kicker in a fight.

[Arm of Harm]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:05 PM, Alaska Darin said:

You're going to have to forgive me for laughing a little at PFF's grading system because it's complete nonsense.  The assumption is the grader KNOWS what the assignment was for the specific player on every play, which invalidates everything they base the grade on.  About the only situation you can really look at is whether a guy gets beat in 1-on-1 matchups.

 

We've talked about this before but it's impossible to grade Dawkins accurately when for at least a dozen games last season the person immediately to his right was playing at an obviously below average level much of the time.  It also ignores the fact that he wasn't completely healthy and hasn't been for each of the last 2 seasons, which is probably a bigger overall concern but it's almost 100% COVID-related.  The reality is Dawkins is on an affordable deal and is approaching what is considered his physical prime.  I would put the likelihood that he's not the starting LT when the season starts at about 3% (assuming he gets there healthy, of course).

 

As for the Milloy situation, it's another aberration example that is nowhere near the rule.  The BILLS organization will never behave like Belichick's Patriots because that's not how the Pegulas, Beane, or McDermott are built.  There's a reason guys come back to Buffalo with a big smile on their face, even when they can make a lot more money elsewhere.

 

I understand where you're coming from on the drafts pre-Beane but our current GM understands team-building better than anyone we've ever had, including Polian.  Now the coaches need to stop screwing up because this roster is the best in the NFL and it was last season as well.

 

1) According to PFF, Dawkins is the 21st best OT, and there's a significant gap between his level of play and what you'd get from the top OTs in the game. Both those things sound true to me.

 

2) Dawkins somewhat recently signed a contract extension, and is making $14.6 million a year. That means he's the 16th highest paid LT in the NFL. There are also five RTs making more than him. Together, those facts mean he is . . . the 21st highest paid OT in the NFL.

 

3) If you agree with PFF's assessment of him, as being 21st best, then his 21st best contract for an OT makes basic sense. If however you feel that he's a top 10 OT in the NFL, he needs to fire his agent.

 

4) Back when Dawkins signed his extension, I did not encounter any "he needs to fire his agent" type posts.

 

5) What is the potential upside to replacing him with a top 10 pick? If you believe PFF's assessment, going from a Dawkins-level player to a top LT would be a substantial improvement. Big upside. But, if you think Dawkins is a top 10 OT, the potential upside of replacing him is small.

 

6) Either way, there's also a potential downside to replacing him, in that the replacement player could be a bust or could fail to live up to draft expectations.

 

7) A rookie contract for an LT would be a lot less than Dawkins is making. Moving Dawkins means that for the next five years, a lot less new money would be going to the LT position. However, some of the money already paid to Dawkins hasn't yet been applied to the salary cap. Moving Dawkins means you're eating that dead cap money over the next 1 - 2 years, rather than spreading it out over the length of his contract.

[Ann]

LOL
 

 

[Alaska Darin]

 

[Ann]

...
 

 

[Spartacus]

forgot to mention how he got abused by KC in the 2020 play-off game

 

Giants lineman Jon Feliciano takes shot at his former team Bills (msn.com)

 

 After not being utilized in the Bills’ overtime loss to Kansas City, Felicano was quoted saying part of him thought they “got what (they) deserved.”

 

 

Even when Boettger was unavailable in the playoffs, Buffalo turned to Ryan Bates, who had recorded the first four starts of his career earlier in the season, in lieu of putting Feliciano back in the starting lineup.

 

With the apparent contempt over the situation in Buffalo, it’s a bit of a surprise to see Feliciano follow his offensive coordinator, now-Giants head coach Brian Daboll, and his offensive line coach, Bobby Johnson, to New York. Johnson has a lot of respect for Feliciano, who he’s coached since their time together began in Oakland.

[Ann]

ShnowTV:
 

Now...
 

 

[Arm of Harm]

On 5/22/2022 at 6:14 AM, Spartacus said:

forgot to mention how he got abused by KC in the 2020 play-off game

 

Giants lineman Jon Feliciano takes shot at his former team Bills (msn.com)

 

 After not being utilized in the Bills’ overtime loss to Kansas City, Felicano was quoted saying part of him thought they “got what (they) deserved.”

 

 

Even when Boettger was unavailable in the playoffs, Buffalo turned to Ryan Bates, who had recorded the first four starts of his career earlier in the season, in lieu of putting Feliciano back in the starting lineup.

 

With the apparent contempt over the situation in Buffalo, it’s a bit of a surprise to see Feliciano follow his offensive coordinator, now-Giants head coach Brian Daboll, and his offensive line coach, Bobby Johnson, to New York. Johnson has a lot of respect for Feliciano, who he’s coached since their time together began in Oakland.

If you look at Allen’s stats, year 4 was a significant step down from year three. But, Allen started putting up great stats late in the season, and had great performances in both postseason games. Highest QB rating for any QB in a postseason, ever. Why the change? Because late in the season the offensive line finally started doing its job. What caused the improvement in offensive line play? Various factors, such as the improvement of Spencer Brown over the course of the season. But the single biggest reason for its improvement was the decision to put in Ryan Bates. Beane made a very good call in giving Bates an extension. He may have made another good call in letting Feliciano walk. 

[Ann]

Offensive line coach Aaron Kromer returns to a Bills team that's nothing like the one he left

 

</snip>

 

It’s a return to Buffalo for Kromer, who spent the 2015-16 seasons as the Bills’ offensive line coach under Rex Ryan. To say the franchise is in a much different spot now than it was then would be a colossal understatement.

 

“I believe that – not comparing the two – this team and organization now is really checking every box from the top down,” Kromer said. “They are making sure everything is done. Every ‘t’ is crossed, every ‘i’ is dotted, and with that they’ve created a culture of winning. They’ve gathered good players, good coaches. It's built a wonderful, successful program. Obviously, this is a good football team run by good people. You could tell how well things are being run at this point.”

 

</snip>

 

“Everything's changed. There is only one player left on the team, not in my position, not on offensive line, but even on the team that was here before,” Kromer said, referencing long snapper Reid Ferguson. “No coaches. It's been great to get to know these guys and really see how they've created a successful program. It was just exciting to get back here. Shoot, we love the people in Buffalo. Everybody is so welcoming, and it feels like home when you come back, so it's been great.”

 

</snip>

 

“I believe that this is a group that wants to be better and wants to work, wants to adhere to the techniques that we're teaching,” he said. “When it comes down to it, football is won with technique. It's one-on-one in a lot of situations, and somebody has to out-technique the other person. I think there's a lot of talent on the line, but I think there's a lot of work to be done with technique, and we're getting there.”

 

At this stage in the offseason, teams are limited in the amount of physical contact that is permitted at practice. Obviously, that limits some of what the offensive linemen can do, but Kromer said his group is still making significant progress.

 

“We're wearing helmets and shorts. Luckily, we teach a lot of hands blocking,” he said.

“Controlling your guys with your hands, so that works out well with no pads on, you don't have to smash into each other to get that done – no matter what scheme it is. We're really trying to build the fundamentals and the ideals of the offense right now and then carry it into the padded training camp.”

 

</snip>