Buffalo Bills want a new stadium – and for taxpayers to foot the bill

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 hour ago, Core Four said:

 

This is sadly the truth...except the Pegulas never going to move the Bills, I'm glad for that.

 

I'll bet the who San Diego thing from Hochul was just BS and completely made up.  Basically all 32 teams need to build new stadiums to honor King Goodell, or something like that.  I just don't follow why a new stadium is such a must...I really don't get it.  The Ralph would have been fine for years to come...they just put a couple hundred million dollars into improvements a few years back.

 

I've heard repeatedly over the past few years that Rich Stadium (it'll always be Rich to me) has legitimate structural concerns. 

 

That are apparently serious enough so that wording was written in to the new stadium deal concerning the Bills having to play elsewhere temporarily if Rich became too unsafe to use before the new stadium was built.

[Spartacus]

19 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

I've heard repeatedly over the past few years that Rich Stadium (it'll always be Rich to me) has legitimate structural concerns. 

 

That are apparently serious enough so that wording was written in to the new stadium deal concerning the Bills having to play elsewhere temporarily if Rich became too unsafe to use before the new stadium was built.

UB stadium

[Core Four]

17 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

I've heard repeatedly over the past few years that Rich Stadium (it'll always be Rich to me) has legitimate structural concerns. 

 

That are apparently serious enough so that wording was written in to the new stadium deal concerning the Bills having to play elsewhere temporarily if Rich became too unsafe to use before the new stadium was built.

 

I read about that and was wondering if the wording is just an exaggeration or a legitimate concern.  I thought the hundreds of millions the county/state spent a few years back was supposed to address structural concerns.

[Spartacus]

1 minute ago, Core Four said:

 

I read about that and was wondering if the wording is just an exaggeration or a legitimate concern.  I thought the hundreds of millions the county/state spent a few years back was supposed to address structural concerns.

they used union labor to make Polancarz happy , so none of the concerns were actually fixed for the $200 mil

[IDBillzFan]

So here's a weird question, in hopes someone knows how this works.

 

I assume the Bills will make a few bucks selling pieces of the stadium; seats, turf, etc. Has anyone ever dealt with something like that, and if you have, do you have an idea of how it's typically run?

 

It's be cool to have some turf or something in my Bills room, but every time I see someone selling turf from a stadium, Iit feels like they dug up some sod from their back yard and sold it to the rubes.

[Ann]

I’ve studied stadium financing for over two decades – and the new Bills stadium is one of the worst deals for taxpayers I’ve ever seen
Victor Matheson, Professor of Economics and Accounting, College of the Holy Cross
 

After New York lawmakers blew past the deadline to approve the state budget, they finally came to an agreement on April 9, 2022, that included a US$850 million subsidy for a new stadium in Buffalo for the NFL’s Bills.
 

As a sports economist who has studied stadium deals for over two decades, I am not exaggerating when I write that the New York Legislature has managed to craft one of the worst stadium deals in recent memory – a remarkable feat considering the high bar set by other misguided state and local governments across the country.
 

Study after study has shown that stadiums are terrible public investments. The taxpayers financing them rarely want to pay for them. So why are governments willing to subsidize them?
 

</snip>

[Alaska Darin]

58 minutes ago, Ann said:

I’ve studied stadium financing for over two decades – and the new Bills stadium is one of the worst deals for taxpayers I’ve ever seen
Victor Matheson, Professor of Economics and Accounting, College of the Holy Cross
 

After New York lawmakers blew past the deadline to approve the state budget, they finally came to an agreement on April 9, 2022, that included a US$850 million subsidy for a new stadium in Buffalo for the NFL’s Bills.
 

As a sports economist who has studied stadium deals for over two decades, I am not exaggerating when I write that the New York Legislature has managed to craft one of the worst stadium deals in recent memory – a remarkable feat considering the high bar set by other misguided state and local governments across the country.
 

Study after study has shown that stadiums are terrible public investments. The taxpayers financing them rarely want to pay for them. So why are governments willing to subsidize them?
 

</snip>

Bread and circuses, especially in one-party rule states.  What are the odds in NY that Republicans ever retake the State House/Senate?  Why would Democrats feel like they'd ever have to answer for the consistent mismanagement of everything they touch?

[RochesterRob]

48 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

Bread and circuses, especially in one-party rule states.  What are the odds in NY that Republicans ever retake the State House/Senate?  Why would Democrats feel like they'd ever have to answer for the consistent mismanagement of everything they touch?

  What are the odds?  Piss poor which is why a lot of the Republican state senate and assembly people have been retiring over the last decade.  Should Hochul falter this November it would only amount to a stay of execution for taxpayers and those burdened with increasing regulations.  I hate to say it but if you are planning to live in NY for a long time plan on your household, vehicle, and business going full electric regardless of how crippling it would be financially.  

[Alaska Darin]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  What are the odds?  Piss poor which is why a lot of the Republican state senate and assembly people have been retiring over the last decade.  Should Hochul falter this November it would only amount to a stay of execution for taxpayers and those burdened with increasing regulations.  I hate to say it but if you are planning to live in NY for a long time plan on your household, vehicle, and business going full electric regardless of how crippling it would be financially.  

I own land there that hasn't appreciated 10% total in 20 years, despite the fact that the taxes go up virtually every year.  At one time I thought I'd retire there.  No more.  I go back once in awhile to see family/friends, eat some comfort food, and maybe catch a BILLS and/or Sabres game but even if I had Elon Musk's bankroll I wouldn't live there.

[RochesterRob]

8 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

I own land there that hasn't appreciated 10% total in 20 years, despite the fact that the taxes go up virtually every year.  At one time I thought I'd retire there.  No more.  I go back once in awhile to see family/friends, eat some comfort food, and maybe catch a BILLS and/or Sabres game but even if I had Elon Musk's bankroll I wouldn't live there.

  There has been a lot of appreciation where I am in the Finger Lakes region.  Do you mind if I ask what county your property is in?

[Alaska Darin]

21 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  There has been a lot of appreciation where I am in the Finger Lakes region.  Do you mind if I ask what county your property is in?

Livingston.  I grew up in the Finger Lakes.  It's a decent-sized plot of farm land but it's off the beaten path.

[Ann]

41 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

I own land there that hasn't appreciated 10% total in 20 years, despite the fact that the taxes go up virtually every year.  At one time I thought I'd retire there.  No more.  I go back once in awhile to see family/friends, eat some comfort food, and maybe catch a BILLS and/or Sabres game but even if I had Elon Musk's bankroll I wouldn't live there.

I am sorry your land didn’t appreciate, especially over 20 years!
 

We sold land + houses + commercial real estate the last two years in anticipation of our move and all were up exponentially from the time we purchased (Erie and Niagara counties). I was surprised at the appreciation.

 

I will definitely miss Western New York. I will not miss New York State politics. 

 

[Spartacus]

4 hours ago, Ann said:

I’ve studied stadium financing for over two decades – and the new Bills stadium is one of the worst deals for taxpayers I’ve ever seen
Victor Matheson, Professor of Economics and Accounting, College of the Holy Cross
 

After New York lawmakers blew past the deadline to approve the state budget, they finally came to an agreement on April 9, 2022, that included a US$850 million subsidy for a new stadium in Buffalo for the NFL’s Bills.
 

As a sports economist who has studied stadium deals for over two decades, I am not exaggerating when I write that the New York Legislature has managed to craft one of the worst stadium deals in recent memory – a remarkable feat considering the high bar set by other misguided state and local governments across the country.
 

Study after study has shown that stadiums are terrible public investments. The taxpayers financing them rarely want to pay for them. So why are governments willing to subsidize them?
 

</snip>

for those keeping score at home, 

looks like NY taxpayers got a deal

 

Tenn taxpayers to fork over $1.5 bil

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/04/15/new-domed-2-2-billion-titans-stadium-could-be-ready-for-2026-season/

 

Via the Tennessean, a new domed stadium for the Titans could open by 2026, and it could cost up to $2.2 billion.

 

The facility would be funded by state and local taxpayer dollars, with the former coming in the form of bonds and the latter potentially financed by a hotel/motel tax. The Titans and the league would kick in roughly $750 million.

[Ann]

New York Times. Smug much?  And yet, NYC lost two teams to New Jersey...
 

Just like the Buffalo Bills themselves, who famously lost four straight Super Bowls, there is no question that the team’s new $1.4 billion stadium proposal has its doubters.
 

The stadium, to be built across the street from the Bills’ current home in this Buffalo suburb, is expected to receive the most generous outlay of public funds for a pro football facility ever, an extension of a decades-long trend in which local and state governments pay big money to keep or lure for-profit, and privately held, sports franchises.
 

Critics have already savaged the deal — which will cost the state $600 million and Erie County an additional $250 million — as an egregious example of corporate welfare. Others view it as a blatant example of election-year largess, orchestrated by a governor, Kathy Hochul, whose upstate bona fides do not necessarily translate to support downstate, where New York elections  are won and lost.
 

</snip>
 

Buffalo’s insecurity about losing the Bills has only heightened as bigger cities have lost their franchises, often drawn by flashy new stadiums like SoFi Stadium in Inglewood, Calif., which was built at a cost of more than $5 billion and now hosts a pair of teams that were drawn to the Los Angeles area from St. Louis and San Diego.
 

</snip>

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

4 hours ago, Ann said:

New York Times. Smug much?  And yet, NYC lost two teams to New Jersey...
 

Just like the Buffalo Bills themselves, who famously lost four straight Super Bowls, there is no question that the team’s new $1.4 billion stadium proposal has its doubters.
 

The stadium, to be built across the street from the Bills’ current home in this Buffalo suburb, is expected to receive the most generous outlay of public funds for a pro football facility ever, an extension of a decades-long trend in which local and state governments pay big money to keep or lure for-profit, and privately held, sports franchises.
 

Critics have already savaged the deal — which will cost the state $600 million and Erie County an additional $250 million — as an egregious example of corporate welfare. Others view it as a blatant example of election-year largess, orchestrated by a governor, Kathy Hochul, whose upstate bona fides do not necessarily translate to support downstate, where New York elections  are won and lost.
 

</snip>
 

Buffalo’s insecurity about losing the Bills has only heightened as bigger cities have lost their franchises, often drawn by flashy new stadiums like SoFi Stadium in Inglewood, Calif., which was built at a cost of more than $5 billion and now hosts a pair of teams that were drawn to the Los Angeles area from St. Louis and San Diego.
 

</snip>

 

 

I stopped reading when they said Allentown was named for Josh Allen.  

[3rdnlng]

1 hour ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

I stopped reading when they said Allentown was named for Josh Allen.  

Didn't they play Pomminville in the Section A basketball playoffs?

[Ann]

...

 

</snip>
 

The Buffalo Bills and Legends announced today an expansive partnership for the data-intelligence fueled global premium experiences company to lead planning, project management, sales and partnerships for the new Bills stadium project. The Bills recently secured a signed Memorandum of Understanding with New York State and received NFL approval for G-4 funding, significant steps towards final approval of the stadium.
 

</snip>
 

"Legends is proud to partner with the Buffalo Bills and Pegula Sports & Entertainment to apply our data-intelligence fueled 360-degree service solution to bring their fans a new, modern stadium that will dramatically enhance the game day experience," said Shervin Mirhashemi, CEO, Legends. "Our seasoned execution team will apply their vast experience and institutional knowledge working with NFL teams on project development, sales campaigns, PSL programs, naming rights and founding partner engagements to deliver a stadium that is unique to Buffalo."
 

</snip>

[Arm of Harm]

On 4/15/2022 at 8:23 AM, Ann said:

I’ve studied stadium financing for over two decades – and the new Bills stadium is one of the worst deals for taxpayers I’ve ever seen
Victor Matheson, Professor of Economics and Accounting, College of the Holy Cross
 

After New York lawmakers blew past the deadline to approve the state budget, they finally came to an agreement on April 9, 2022, that included a US$850 million subsidy for a new stadium in Buffalo for the NFL’s Bills.
 

As a sports economist who has studied stadium deals for over two decades, I am not exaggerating when I write that the New York Legislature has managed to craft one of the worst stadium deals in recent memory – a remarkable feat considering the high bar set by other misguided state and local governments across the country.
 

Study after study has shown that stadiums are terrible public investments. The taxpayers financing them rarely want to pay for them. So why are governments willing to subsidize them?
 

</snip>

1) Why should good stewardship of public funds matter for a stadium, when it clearly does not matter to elected officials for the budget as a whole?

 

2) Money is being spent in much worse ways than this stadium. For example, both legal and illegal immigration are being subsidized in various ways. 
 

3) The article’s author implies that money spent on education is good, legitimate spending. Let’s look at that assumption. After adjusting for inflation, the U.S. spends three times as much per pupil as it did back in the ‘70s. Tripling the spending did not triple the results, or even improve them at all. On the contrary: America’s public school system is the worst of any major industrialized nation, even though our spending per pupil is among the world’s highest. Money is not the problem. America’s public schools are bad because they are run by and for the teachers unions. 
 

4) The only real way to prevent the NFL from receiving corporate welfare at taxpayers’ expense is to ban it at the federal level. The article does not mention this as a possibility. The implication is that NYS should have offered little or no subsidy while risking the Bills leaving. But why? Again and again, taxpayers in Upstate NY have opened their checkbooks to pay for destructive social programs wrought by NYC politicians. This time, NYC voters, who are 10 to 1 Democrat, will see a tiny increase in their tax bill to pay for something in Upstate NY. Boo hoo. Anyone who keeps voting for the kind of government NYS has been getting deserves a high tax bill, and deserves to pay for plenty of government waste. 

[Beer__League__Hockey]

New stadium intel:

 

So as a season ticket holder (~20 years?), my friend got to attend a "focus group" to better understand what "amenities" the average Bills fan want to see in the new stadium.  All the typical blah blah talk about microbreweries, grand concourses like an airport, covered heated seating, etc.  He said that took 20 minutes and all of the 15 people in the focus group had glazed eyes by the end of the dog & pony show.  Then they broke out and individually discussed tentative ticket cost/PSLs - what they all came for.  He said it was very cloak & dagger the way they did it.  Mind you he sits at the ~40 yard line (section 132 I think) - The season ticket cost were working out to be approx. 5x of today's value per seat, and the one time PSL was in the $15k range for a seat.  The PSL can be payment planned with interest over 10 years max.  He kept calling it his new mortgage.

 

They don't have an actual stadium chart yet, but the example seating chart they rolled out looked sort of like SoFi stadium with lots of thin rings/sections.  No more massive 300 level.  He guessed he'd have top move up to the 500s or 600s to keep his costs under control, but they didn't show him those seats & cost - just the equivalent to where he sits today.  He also had doubts about finding a seat that he'd accept as well (higher but between the 30 yard lines is what he'd consider), and suspects most long time season ticket holders with more seniority will move up and push others with less tenure out (like me @ 4 years).  I might get a crack at the big money seats - great...

 

Big picture (my opinion here), the lower bowl 100s & 200s will then be owned by permanent stubhub resellers, as the average joe will not be able to pay $12.5k season ticket costs plus the PSL.  It's great the Bills will stay in OP, but the prospects of going to a game don't sound like a fun way to burn money.  Guessing here - my 300 level seasons ($800 for 10 games) would probably get me into 2 games in the new stadium.

[Ann]

9 minutes ago, Beer__League__Hockey said:

New stadium intel:

 

So as a season ticket holder (~20 years?), my friend got to attend a "focus group" to better understand what "amenities" the average Bills fan want to see in the new stadium.  All the typical blah blah talk about microbreweries, grand concourses like an airport, covered heated seating, etc.  He said that took 20 minutes and all of the 15 people in the focus group had glazed eyes by the end of the dog & pony show.  Then they broke out and individually discussed tentative ticket cost/PSLs - what they all came for.  He said it was very cloak & dagger the way they did it.  Mind you he sits at the ~40 yard line (section 132 I think) - The season ticket cost were working out to be approx. 5x of today's value per seat, and the one time PSL was in the $15k range for a seat.  The PSL can be payment planned with interest over 10 years max.  He kept calling it his new mortgage.

 

They don't have an actual stadium chart yet, but the example seating chart they rolled out looked sort of like SoFi stadium with lots of thin rings/sections.  No more massive 300 level.  He guessed he'd have top move up to the 500s or 600s to keep his costs under control, but they didn't show him those seats & cost - just the equivalent to where he sits today.  He also had doubts about finding a seat that he'd accept as well (higher but between the 30 yard lines is what he'd consider), and suspects most long time season ticket holders with more seniority will move up and push others with less tenure out (like me @ 4 years).  I might get a crack at the big money seats - great...

 

Big picture (my opinion here), the lower bowl 100s & 200s will then be owned by permanent stubhub resellers, as the average joe will not be able to pay $12.5k season ticket costs plus the PSL.  It's great the Bills will stay in OP, but the prospects of going to a game don't sound like a fun way to burn money.  Guessing here - my 300 level seasons ($800 for 10 games) would probably get me into 2 games in the new stadium.

Unless I am totally misreading your post:

That sounds a little pricey for individual seats for this area. If a PSL is $15K  that increases the cost of 9 home games by $166 per game, and $187.50 per game for the 8 game seasons. I used 10 years, no interest to figure it out.. if they add an interest rate (as you indicated), it will of course be more.
(I did not add in preseason games as those are more of a burden than a perk.)

Will the PSL be considered "paid" for home playoff games? If so:

8 home games = $187.50 additional charge per seat
9 home games = $166 additional per seat
10 home games = $150 additional per seat
11 home games = $136.35 additional per seat
12 home games = $125 additional per seat

You think your PSL would be $8K over 10 years? That would work out to an additional $100 per seat on an 8 home game season, $88.88 additional in a 9 home game season.

With PSLs it does not appear that any seat will be under $200 per game (the average ticket price right now is $113 ($92 - $275)).  If the numbers work out to 5x what they are now (all in) as you seem to indicate, that would be $460 - $1,375 per seat!!

The Bills better hope they are competitive and in the playoff from here on out. If they were to go 17 years without playoffs again, the stadium income could become very grim indeed.