Flores Suing NFL and NYG; Charges Racism

[Figster]

1 hour ago, Arm of Harm said:

There are times when a head coach is sacrificed to atone for a GM’s sins. The Miami GM’s sin was taking Tua instead of Justin Herbert. Someone had to take the fall for that. It’s so very easy for a GM to argue that the player is not the problem. The player would do just fine, if only he had better coaching. If the owner is gullible enough to listen to that, then it’s the coach, not the GM, who ends up getting canned. 
 

Miami’s GM is black. This means that Khan fired one black man who probably didn’t deserve to be fired (Flores) while failing to fire a different black man who most certainly did (the GM). Why would an owner make such a mistake? His own wishful thinking. I’m sure it would make the Dolphins owner very happy if “good coaching” was a magic elixir which could somehow make Tua at least as good as Herbert. Much easier and faster to replace a head coach than to find a new GM + a new QB.
 

White head coaches periodically get fired to atone for a GM’s sins. When that happens people shrug their shoulders and move on. But when the same thing happens to a black head coach, it must automatically be about race. Were the Dolphins unaware of Flores’ race when they hired him in the first place? 

 For a QB with a 13-8 win loss record as a starter drafting Tua is nor the huge mistake everyone makes him out to be IMO. Herbert win loss as a starter 15-17. Both the Chargers and Dolphins finished 9- 8 

[Fansince88]

2 hours ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

That's...

 

<shakes Magic Intersectionality 9-Ball>

 

...anti-immigrant.

Hey, what happened to the 8 ball? Or was it always 9?

[Ann]

3 minutes ago, Figster said:

 For a QB with a 13-8 win loss record as a starter drafting Tua is nor the huge mistake everyone makes him out to be IMO. Herbert win loss as a starter 15-17. Both the Chargers and Dolphins finished 9- 8 

First time I saw Herbert play his rookie year I could tell he had “it.” I was very thankful Miami didn’t take him. I didn’t see anything this year that changed my mind. 

 

Tua may go on to have a long career, Fitz did, heck, Todd Collins did. But, I sincerely doubt he ever becomes great, let alone elite. Time could prove that opinion wrong, but I doubt it.

[Core Four]

16 minutes ago, Figster said:

 For a QB with a 13-8 win loss record as a starter drafting Tua is nor the huge mistake everyone makes him out to be IMO. Herbert win loss as a starter 15-17. Both the Chargers and Dolphins finished 9- 8 

 

Tua needs a lot of help around him, as well as a good coaching staff.  He's far from Herbert, Burrow, Mahomes, or Josh Allen and will not be able to carry the offense.  I think at best, Tua will be a step slightly above backup status.  At worst, he will be a backup journeyman.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Core Four

[Alaska Darin]

2 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

This means that Khan fired one black man who probably didn’t deserve to be fired (Flores) while failing to fire a different black man who most certainly did (the GM). 

 

[Figster]

1 hour ago, Ann said:

First time I saw Herbert play his rookie year I could tell he had “it.” I was very thankful Miami didn’t take him. I didn’t see anything this year that changed my mind. 

 

Tua may go on to have a long career, Fitz did, heck, Todd Collins did. But, I sincerely doubt he ever becomes great, let alone elite. Time could prove that opinion wrong, but I doubt it.

Time will tell Ann

1 hour ago, Core Four said:

 

Tua needs a lot of help around him, as well as a good coaching staff.  He's far from Herbert, Burrow, Mahomes, or Josh Allen and will not be able to carry the offense.  I think at best, Tua will be a step slightly above backup status.  At worst, he will be a backup journeyman.

Mahomes and Allen may have the best supporting cast in football. (Before Daboll departure) All QB's need allot of help to succeed in the NFL. Stafford is a great example. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Figster

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 hour ago, Fansince88 said:

Hey, what happened to the 8 ball? Or was it always 9?

 

 

[Alaska Darin]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

 For a QB with a 13-8 win loss record as a starter drafting Tua is nor the huge mistake everyone makes him out to be IMO. Herbert win loss as a starter 15-17. Both the Chargers and Dolphins finished 9- 8 

Nonsense.  Herbert with the Fish defense wins 12 games without issue. 

 

The Fish win streak this season contained precisely ONE quality win.   The rest of our was against the worst teams in the league.   Last season, they suffered a bad late season loss in Denver (the same team the BILLS absolutely steam rolled). That's the real reason they had to win in Buffalo in the final game of 2020.

 

People like to look at things from the outside but Flores has plenty of red flags on his resume and his firing wasn't much of a surprise (more surprised the GM wasn't sent packing too).  His skin color is just an excuse, like in most cases when someone wants to be a victim. 

[Figster]

17 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

Nonsense.  Herbert with the Fish defense wins 12 games without issue. 

 

The Fish win streak this season contained precisely ONE quality win.   The rest of our was against the worst teams in the league.   Last season, they suffered a bad late season loss in Denver (the same team the BILLS absolutely steam rolled). That's the real reason they had to win in Buffalo in the final game of 2020.

 

People like to look at things from the outside but Flores has plenty of red flags on his resume and his firing wasn't much of a surprise (more surprised the GM wasn't sent packing too).  His skin color is just an excuse, like in most cases when someone wants to be a victim. 

Didn't mean for this to become a Tua vs Herbert debate on who is the better QB. 🤷‍♂️ (Clearly Herbert)

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Figster

[Arm of Harm]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

 For a QB with a 13-8 win loss record as a starter drafting Tua is nor the huge mistake everyone makes him out to be IMO. Herbert win loss as a starter 15-17. Both the Chargers and Dolphins finished 9- 8 

 

Over the course of his career, Trent Edwards averaged 6.5 yards per pass attempt. Losman's career average was 6.6. Brady's was 7.5.

 

With those numbers in mind, let's compare Herbert with Tua. I realize Tua got off to a bit of a rough start his rookie year. So to make this extra fair I'll throw out both QBs' rookie years and look only at what they did in 2021. Tua's yards per pass attempt in 2021 was 6.8. That's somewhat better than Losman or Edwards. Justin Herbert's yards per pass attempt in 2021 was 7.5, identical to the career average of Brady. Herbert threw for over 5,000 yards in 2021. Brady only has two 5,000 seasons in his career. Tua threw for 2,653 yards in 2021. Tua's passing yardage got dialed back a bit due to missing four games, but you're still looking at a very substantial difference. 

 

If Herbert's numbers are Brady-like, and if Tua's numbers are like those of a slightly improved Edwards or Losman, then how do I explain the fact that the difference in winning percentages is in Tua's favor? Football is a team sport. The quarterback is not the only player on the field who can affect the outcome of the game.

[Core Four]

12 hours ago, Figster said:

Mahomes and Allen may have the best supporting cast in football. (Before Daboll departure) All QB's need allot of help to succeed in the NFL. Stafford is a great example. 

 

Tua will need more than what Allen, Stafford, and Mahomes have to look really good.

[Figster]

2 hours ago, Core Four said:

 

Tua will need more than what Allen, Stafford, and Mahomes have to look really good.

I think going 13 - 8 as a rookie, 2nd year starter on a team that overall was considered good, not great. It gives the impression Tua will do even better with more help and experience IMO.

 

I do however agree with you...

 

Note : I realize some QB's like Mahomes and Burrows have had instant success, but it's not the norm.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Figster

[Core Four]

14 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

If Herbert's numbers are Brady-like, and if Tua's numbers are like those of a slightly improved Edwards or Losman, then how do I explain the fact that the difference in winning percentages is in Tua's favor? Football is a team sport. The quarterback is not the only player on the field who can affect the outcome of the game.

 

Right.  Your analysis further emphasizes the point that Tua will need a lot of help around him to be successful.

[Figster]

16 minutes ago, Core Four said:

 

Right.  Your analysis further emphasizes the point that Tua will need a lot of help around him to be successful.

Don't you think OC /system/supporting cast plays into the equation? Trent Edwards for instance played under a coach/system that mangled QB's. Behind one of the worst Olines Buffalo has ever seen I might add. (Glorified sales manager brain fart) 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Figster

[Core Four]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

Don't you think OC /system/supporting cast plays into the equation? Trent Edwards for instance played under a coach/system that mangled QB's. Behind one of the worst Olines Buffalo has ever seen I might add. (Glorified sales manager brain fart) 

 

The OC and system absolutely does play a big part in QB development, just as much as the oline and skills position players around him.  A bad OC and bad surrounding player cast will drag down a good QB, just like a good OC and good players around the QB will make the QB look better than what he is.

 

The QB, himself, obviously plays into it.  Josh is an anomaly (we are so lucky to have him) where he has mental toughness, a competitive drive, and innate skills that are still being developed.  IMO, Daboll was not a great OC and his scheme (including oline) was not optimal.  Josh made Daboll look much better than what he is.  A QB like Josh was still able to thrive and bring up the offense largely on his own; Josh was the offense most of the time.  Trent Edwards, going by memory here, was not mentally tough and didn't have the skillset to be a better QB.  Edwards was probably a step below Tua (who I don't think is a special QB) and needed way more around him than what the Bills gave him.

[Robs House]

3 hours ago, Figster said:

Don't you think OC /system/supporting cast plays into the equation? Trent Edwards for instance played under a coach/system that mangled QB's. Behind one of the worst Olines Buffalo has ever seen I might add. (Glorified sales manager brain fart) 

 

As I was reading this defense of Trent Edwards I thought to myself, "this reminds me of dog38579." Then it hit me...

[Figster]

5 hours ago, Robs House said:

 

As I was reading this defense of Trent Edwards I thought to myself, "this reminds me of dog38579." Then it hit me...

Lol, the holy Trent never had a chance behind that Oline ;  )

 

 

 

[Arm of Harm]

8 minutes ago, Figster said:

Lol, the holy Trent never had a chance behind that Oline ;  )

 

 

 

 

For a long time I was a Trent Edwards supporter. I liked the fact he went to Stanford (brains), I really liked the Bill Walsh recommendation, and I liked the fact he had the physical tools to get the job done. Not world beater physical tools, but good enough to get the job done.

 

Then I encountered a thread in which people were excited, because Trent was hitting his receivers in perfect stride in practice. So, I watched the video clip for myself. He was not, in fact, hitting receivers in perfect stride. They had to slow down to catch his passes. That's when I began rethinking my enthusiasm. Edwards was supposedly a "West Coast" quarterback, but what's the good of a West Coast quarterback if he's unable to hit horizontally moving targets in perfect stride?

 

Did the Bills do him any favors? No. The offensive line was, as you pointed out, very bad. There was also a shortage of good receivers. To solve that problem the Bills signed an aging Terrell Owens. While I don't generally object to adding Hall of Fame players to the roster, Owens had nothing left in the tank. Signing him was more a publicity move than a genuine improvement of the team. Also Edwards got bad coaching--coaching which was the exact opposite of what he needed to hear. His tendency was to be cautious. Instead of encouraging him to take occasional risks, the coaching staff seemingly amplified his caution. Eventually Edwards became a guy throwing short passes to stationary targets (his dump-off option). Very much a low risk, low reward strategy. Do I think Edwards had it in him to be more than that? Yes. With the right coaching I think he could have been a quality backup.

 

But that's not the way things panned out. When Edwards' career should have been in its prime, he was unable to make anyone's final roster. The same was also true of Losman. Do I think Edwards and Losman were treated completely fairly? No. I'm sure there were QBs who made final rosters who were worse than either of those two. Still, Edwards was given opportunities to prove himself away from the Bills' coaching staff, away from the Bills' offensive line (or lack thereof). Edwards had the physical tools to be an NFL starter, and most of the guys he was competing against didn't. Despite that he couldn't get the job done, and that's on him.

[LB3]

7 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

For a long time I was a Trent Edwards supporter. I liked the fact he went to Stanford (brains), I really liked the Bill Walsh recommendation, and I liked the fact he had the physical tools to get the job done. Not world beater physical tools, but good enough to get the job done.

 

Then I encountered a thread in which people were excited, because Trent was hitting his receivers in perfect stride in practice. So, I watched the video clip for myself. He was not, in fact, hitting receivers in perfect stride. They had to slow down to catch his passes. That's when I began rethinking my enthusiasm. Edwards was supposedly a "West Coast" quarterback, but what's the good of a West Coast quarterback if he's unable to hit horizontally moving targets in perfect stride?

 

Did the Bills do him any favors? No. The offensive line was, as you pointed out, very bad. There was also a shortage of good receivers. To solve that problem the Bills signed an aging Terrell Owens. While I don't generally object to adding Hall of Fame players to the roster, Owens had nothing left in the tank. Signing him was more a publicity move than a genuine improvement of the team. Also Edwards got bad coaching--coaching which was the exact opposite of what he needed to hear. His tendency was to be cautious. Instead of encouraging him to take occasional risks, the coaching staff seemingly amplified his caution. Eventually Edwards became a guy throwing short passes to stationary targets (his dump-off option). Very much a low risk, low reward strategy. Do I think Edwards had it in him to be more than that? Yes. With the right coaching I think he could have been a quality backup.

 

But that's not the way things panned out. When Edwards' career should have been in its prime, he was unable to make anyone's final roster. The same was also true of Losman. Do I think Edwards and Losman were treated completely fairly? No. I'm sure there were QBs who made final rosters who were worse than either of those two. Still, Edwards was given opportunities to prove himself away from the Bills' coaching staff, away from the Bills' offensive line (or lack thereof). Edwards had the physical tools to be an NFL starter, and most of the guys he was competing against didn't. Despite that he couldn't get the job done, and that's on him.

 

 

[4merper4mer]

8 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

For a long time I was a Trent Edwards supporter. I liked the fact he went to Stanford (brains), I really liked the Bill Walsh recommendation, and I liked the fact he had the physical tools to get the job done. Not world beater physical tools, but good enough to get the job done.

 

Then I encountered a thread in which people were excited, because Trent was hitting his receivers in perfect stride in practice. So, I watched the video clip for myself. He was not, in fact, hitting receivers in perfect stride. They had to slow down to catch his passes. That's when I began rethinking my enthusiasm. Edwards was supposedly a "West Coast" quarterback, but what's the good of a West Coast quarterback if he's unable to hit horizontally moving targets in perfect stride?

 

Did the Bills do him any favors? No. The offensive line was, as you pointed out, very bad. There was also a shortage of good receivers. To solve that problem the Bills signed an aging Terrell Owens. While I don't generally object to adding Hall of Fame players to the roster, Owens had nothing left in the tank. Signing him was more a publicity move than a genuine improvement of the team. Also Edwards got bad coaching--coaching which was the exact opposite of what he needed to hear. His tendency was to be cautious. Instead of encouraging him to take occasional risks, the coaching staff seemingly amplified his caution. Eventually Edwards became a guy throwing short passes to stationary targets (his dump-off option). Very much a low risk, low reward strategy. Do I think Edwards had it in him to be more than that? Yes. With the right coaching I think he could have been a quality backup.

 

But that's not the way things panned out. When Edwards' career should have been in its prime, he was unable to make anyone's final roster. The same was also true of Losman. Do I think Edwards and Losman were treated completely fairly? No. I'm sure there were QBs who made final rosters who were worse than either of those two. Still, Edwards was given opportunities to prove himself away from the Bills' coaching staff, away from the Bills' offensive line (or lack thereof). Edwards had the physical tools to be an NFL starter, and most of the guys he was competing against didn't. Despite that he couldn't get the job done, and that's on him.

I knew Walsh was simply playing a practical joke on Marv.