13 Seconds...

[IDBillzFan]

22 minutes ago, Arm of Harm said:

Im not sure I fully understand your perspective. Maybe you can help clarify a few things. 
 

1) The only thing we as fans can control is whether we watch the games. All other subjects should be off-limits, at least if we’re disallowing the overly repetitive ad nauseum discussion of things we can’t control. But if we did that, we wouldn’t have much of a discussion board!

 

Modified for accuracy. We discuss everything here. Discussing the same thing over and over is my issue, and my issue alone. Like I said, I'll just go past them moving forward. Personally speaking, I can only take so many "Frazier Sucks! Edmunds Sucks!" type posts. During the games I get it. I'm not an Xs and Os guy and even I can see the in-game issues. But post-game...over and over...gets tiresome *to me.* 

 

On the upside, it's 100x better than ATOP ever was.

 

26 minutes ago, Arm of Harm said:

3) Frazier’s coaching got ripped to shreds in his first playoff game against the Chiefs. I realize just about everyone gets out-coached from time to time. It happens and you move on. But then next postseason Frazier used the same failed game plan and philosophy, with the same result. No indication that he’d learned a single thing. Nothing to indicate McDermott had done anything at all to correct the total coaching failure on the defensive side of the ball. If you could show me evidence that things were being fixed this time around, I’d accept your premise that these catastrophic coaching failures were a thing of the past. Thus far I’ve seen no such evidence. The next time the Bills encounter the Chiefs in the postseason, I’m fully expecting Frazier to trot out a game plan based on soft zone and contain. This is by far my most serious current concern with the team. 

 

Again, this isn't about the topic. It's about the repetitiveness of the topic. He sucks. I know it. You know it. Saying it over and over doesn't fix or change things. On the other hand, while the defense was absolutely an issue with the last game, few people are talking about it today if Bass squib kicks at 13 seconds. I think the game changes if the Chiefs only have 8 seconds or so. On the other other hand, it led to a horrible, embarrassing defeat and I simply choose to believe McDermott knows how bad this was and will absolutely work to fix things.

 

He's at least bringing in help. TWO defensive quality control coaches?

• Jaylon Finner, defensive quality control coach (new hire)
• Kyle Shurmer, defensive quality control coach (new hire)
• Marcus West, assistant defensive line coach (new hire)
• Cory Harkey, assistant special teams coach (new hire)

[Core Four]

51 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

On the other other hand, it led to a horrible, embarrassing defeat and I simply choose to believe McDermott knows how bad this was and will absolutely work to fix things.

 

I really hope this is true, as fans we don't have much choice.  It won't be until September when we'll have an idea if McD and Frazier have changed their philosophy.

 

52 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

He's at least bringing in help. TWO defensive quality control coaches?

 

We're shaping up to have a large coaching staff.  I haven't counted, but most of it appears to be on the defensive side of the ball.  Rex Ryan also had a large coaching staff, among the largest in the league.  I'm not sure that bigger is always better.  Isn't there something said about too many cooks in the kitchen?

[Arm of Harm]

1 hour ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

Modified for accuracy. We discuss everything here. Discussing the same thing over and over is my issue, and my issue alone. Like I said, I'll just go past them moving forward. Personally speaking, I can only take so many "Frazier Sucks! Edmunds Sucks!" type posts. During the games I get it. I'm not an Xs and Os guy and even I can see the in-game issues. But post-game...over and over...gets tiresome *to me.* 

 

On the upside, it's 100x better than ATOP ever was.

 

 

Again, this isn't about the topic. It's about the repetitiveness of the topic. He sucks. I know it. You know it. Saying it over and over doesn't fix or change things. On the other hand, while the defense was absolutely an issue with the last game, few people are talking about it today if Bass squib kicks at 13 seconds. I think the game changes if the Chiefs only have 8 seconds or so. On the other other hand, it led to a horrible, embarrassing defeat and I simply choose to believe McDermott knows how bad this was and will absolutely work to fix things.

 

He's at least bringing in help. TWO defensive quality control coaches?

• Jaylon Finner, defensive quality control coach (new hire)
• Kyle Shurmer, defensive quality control coach (new hire)
• Marcus West, assistant defensive line coach (new hire)
• Cory Harkey, assistant special teams coach (new hire)

If everyone agreed that Frazier was a bad defensive coordinator and needed to go, I don’t think the discussion would have lasted as long as it did. However there have been those who have come to Frazier’s defense. There is also the separate question about whether to fire McDermott, if he continues to do absolutely nothing to improve upon the terrible defensive game plans Frazier uses against the Chiefs. These factors, I think, helped the discussion to be longer than might have been the case if everything was cut and dried and all were in agreement. 
 

You mentioned the defense having double the usual number of quality control coaches. The usual role of a quality control coach is to break down film and do grunt work. I don’t know that there’s much a quality control coach can do to correct the lack of imagination or weakness inherent in Frazier’s game plans. The addition of a second quality control coach does not meaningfully address the Bills’ defensive coaching problems. 
 

There are some who only want to hear positive things about the Bills, and who get annoyed when people touch upon the negative. Certainly there’s a lot of positive to be discussed! The thread about Josh Allen is much longer than this one, so if your goal is to focus on the positive maybe you’d enjoy that thread more than you seem to be enjoying this. For me it’s a bit different. I don’t see a need to spend time thinking about who the Bills’ starting QB should be, because we’ve already gotten that figured out. Whereas, I do see a need to think about what to do about defensive coaching, because that problem has yet to be solved. 

[IDBillzFan]

13 minutes ago, Arm of Harm said:

 so if your goal is to focus on the positive maybe you’d enjoy that thread more than you seem to be enjoying this.

 

The irony is not lost on me that I have to repeatedly state over and over and over that my issue is not with the negative discussions. It is that some of the negativity is repeated about the same thing over and over and over.

 

And for what it's worth, I don't care what you do for a living...hell, if you're job is Head Dishwasher, and your boss hires two people whose have the same job title of Dishwasher Quality Control Coach, you better believe there is a reason for that.

 

I imagine Frazier sees the same thing.

 

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

5 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

The irony is not lost on me that I have to repeatedly state over and over and over that my issue is not with the negative discussions. It is that some of the negativity is repeated about the same thing over and over and over.

 

And for what it's worth, I don't care what you do for a living...hell, if you're job is Head Dishwasher, and your boss hires two people whose have the same job title of Dishwasher Quality Control Coach, you better believe there is a reason for that.

 

Because Edmunds is washing dishes?

[IDBillzFan]

Just now, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

Because Edmunds is washing dishes?

 

Now you're catching up.

[Arm of Harm]

14 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

The irony is not lost on me that I have to repeatedly state over and over and over that my issue is not with the negative discussions. It is that some of the negativity is repeated about the same thing over and over and over.

 

And for what it's worth, I don't care what you do for a living...hell, if you're job is Head Dishwasher, and your boss hires two people whose have the same job title of Dishwasher Quality Control Coach, you better believe there is a reason for that.

 

I imagine Frazier sees the same thing.

 

 

There is a military strategy game I like to play called Axis and Allies. (Playable online on TripleA.) Over the years, you learn that some people have a much higher aptitude for that sort of thing than others. 
 

To what extent is being a defensive coordinator also a mental aptitude test? Are some defensive coordinators condemned to careers of mediocrity, due to not having the innate talent needed for greatness? If Frazier is being held back by a lack of aptitude, no amount of lighting a fire under him is going to fix that. 

[Core Four]

1 hour ago, Arm of Harm said:

There is a military strategy game I like to play called Axis and Allies. (Playable online on TripleA.) Over the years, you learn that some people have a much higher aptitude for that sort of thing than others. 
 

To what extent is being a defensive coordinator also a mental aptitude test? Are some defensive coordinators condemned to careers of mediocrity, due to not having the innate talent needed for greatness? If Frazier is being held back by a lack of aptitude, no amount of lighting a fire under him is going to fix that. 

 

I suspect that Frazier is being held back by a stubborn attachment to a failing philosophy.  That can be fixed...if he wants to fix it, or is told to fix it.  The question is, how much does McD have to do with the defensive scheme?  I personally suspect that it is Frazier's scheme and he runs the show; I say this because McD mentioned as much, plus McD is not a micromanager.

 

I'll give Frazier the benefit of the doubt that it is probably not a total lack of aptitude.  I would think Frazier knows his X's and O's, but he is not as much of a defensive mind as Belichick, for example.  I suspect that Frazier has his idea of what a defense should be, at all times, and he doesn't stray from that.  He is the anti Belichick in that regard.  Belichick adjusts and adapts, Frazier not so much.

[IDBillzFan]

6 minutes ago, Core Four said:

I suspect that Frazier has his idea of what a defense should be, at all times, and he doesn't stray from that.  He is the anti Belichick in that regard.  Belichick adjusts and adapts, Frazier not so much.

 

This is our biggest issue on defense, in my limited knowledge. But in the end, some of the Bills defensive woes would be helped if they were simply built better in the middle to fight the run.

 

The team's current plan to stop the run is to score enough points on offense to put the opposing team in the position to abandon the run to try to catch up. This works well with lesser teams (Jets, Fish, NO, WTFs, etc.) but no much against better teams with superior running (Tenn, Indy, TB). Teams like Tenn and Indy demand a run game to win. We couldn't stop either one of them, missed holding penalties notwithstanding.

 

In the end, the offense is their best defense. You're a foot slip and a squib kick from better playoff positioning and a shot at the AFC Championship. Execute those, and we're having a different conversation.

[Core Four]

2 hours ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

This is our biggest issue on defense, in my limited knowledge. But in the end, some of the Bills defensive woes would be helped if they were simply built better in the middle to fight the run.

 

The team's current plan to stop the run is to score enough points on offense to put the opposing team in the position to abandon the run to try to catch up. This works well with lesser teams (Jets, Fish, NO, WTFs, etc.) but no much against better teams with superior running (Tenn, Indy, TB). Teams like Tenn and Indy demand a run game to win. We couldn't stop either one of them, missed holding penalties notwithstanding.

 

In the end, the offense is their best defense. You're a foot slip and a squib kick from better playoff positioning and a shot at the AFC Championship. Execute those, and we're having a different conversation.

 

I agree with this, especially the bolded part.  A 1TDT that actually clogs the middle and takes on two blockers (not the fable of Star) is an absolute need.  That can, and should, be fulfilled in this draft.  Also, when facing teams that have a real run threat, play a 4-3 and allocate a LB to help stop the run and not a DB, which Frazier did rely on a DB in a number of games.  We need to be a little less DB-centric.

[Arm of Harm]

8 hours ago, Core Four said:

 

I suspect that Frazier is being held back by a stubborn attachment to a failing philosophy.  That can be fixed...if he wants to fix it, or is told to fix it.  The question is, how much does McD have to do with the defensive scheme?  I personally suspect that it is Frazier's scheme and he runs the show; I say this because McD mentioned as much, plus McD is not a micromanager.

 

I'll give Frazier the benefit of the doubt that it is probably not a total lack of aptitude.  I would think Frazier knows his X's and O's, but he is not as much of a defensive mind as Belichick, for example.  I suspect that Frazier has his idea of what a defense should be, at all times, and he doesn't stray from that.  He is the anti Belichick in that regard.  Belichick adjusts and adapts, Frazier not so much.

Suppose you were to gather up everyone participating on this forum, teach them all Axis and Allies, and have them each play 100 games of it. Would everyone be at about the same level, given that the experience level is the same? By no means! Instead you’d see a broad distribution of play quality, due to variations in aptitude. A middle of the pack player might say to himself, “If I face _______ I’ll get totally slaughtered, but if I face _________ it’s an easy win.” 
 

Good players will periodically think up good strategies. The more effective a strategy, the more likely it is to be imitated by players generally. Thus, a mediocre player will seemingly be playing “above his level.” Meaning, he’ll be using strategies better than the ones he could have come up with on his own. 
 

An inferior player might be able to mimic the strategy of a superior player. But, he won’t understand all the thinking behind it. His execution won’t be as good. He won’t know how to respond when his opponent counters the strategy. 
 

An elite player will have a variety of strategies in mind. He will know when to dial up any given strategy, because he understands the logic behind it and what it’s intended to achieve. Whereas the inferior player might stick with the one good strategy he knows, even when it isn’t working and even when the strategy is uncalled-for under the circumstances. To external observers that might appear to be due to the inferior player’s stubbornness. But the inferior player isn’t necessarily stubborn. He just doesn’t understand the why behind each strategy, and lacks the elite player’s ability to flexibly employ whichever strategy is optimal given the opponent and the circumstances. 
 

To the extent that intelligence and creativity are useful traits for being a defensive coordinator, I’d expect to see a broad distribution of defensive coordinating ability. Where on that distribution would one find Leslie Frazier? His apparent inability to learn from past mistakes, his use of soft zone even when it’s clearly inappropriate, and the lack of creativity in his defense, all suggest he’s on the lower end of that distribution. If you guys see evidence of innate defensive coordinating ability that I’m missing, I’m certainly willing to listen. But from where I sit, Frazier is very much like an inferior Axis and Allies player, imitating a strategy he’s seen from a better player, even when such imitation doesn’t make sense. 

[Ann]

The article is behind a paywall that I didn't care to pay for... if you care, you  gotta pay (read the comments first to see if it is worth it). 🙂
 

 

[Core Four]

5 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

Suppose you were to gather up everyone participating on this forum, teach them all Axis and Allies, and have them each play 100 games of it. Would everyone be at about the same level, given that the experience level is the same? By no means! Instead you’d see a broad distribution of play quality, due to variations in aptitude. A middle of the pack player might say to himself, “If I face _______ I’ll get totally slaughtered, but if I face _________ it’s an easy win.” 
 

Good players will periodically think up good strategies. The more effective a strategy, the more likely it is to be imitated by players generally. Thus, a mediocre player will seemingly be playing “above his level.” Meaning, he’ll be using strategies better than the ones he could have come up with on his own. 
 

An inferior player might be able to mimic the strategy of a superior player. But, he won’t understand all the thinking behind it. His execution won’t be as good. He won’t know how to respond when his opponent counters the strategy. 
 

An elite player will have a variety of strategies in mind. He will know when to dial up any given strategy, because he understands the logic behind it and what it’s intended to achieve. Whereas the inferior player might stick with the one good strategy he knows, even when it isn’t working and even when the strategy is uncalled-for under the circumstances. To external observers that might appear to be due to the inferior player’s stubbornness. But the inferior player isn’t necessarily stubborn. He just doesn’t understand the why behind each strategy, and lacks the elite player’s ability to flexibly employ whichever strategy is optimal given the opponent and the circumstances. 
 

To the extent that intelligence and creativity are useful traits for being a defensive coordinator, I’d expect to see a broad distribution of defensive coordinating ability. Where on that distribution would one find Leslie Frazier? His apparent inability to learn from past mistakes, his use of soft zone even when it’s clearly inappropriate, and the lack of creativity in his defense, all suggest he’s on the lower end of that distribution. If you guys see evidence of innate defensive coordinating ability that I’m missing, I’m certainly willing to listen. But from where I sit, Frazier is very much like an inferior Axis and Allies player, imitating a strategy he’s seen from a better player, even when such imitation doesn’t make sense. 

 

I get the point you're conveying.  No, I don't think Frazier's football IQ is near that of Belichick, or even Jim Schwartz.  Frazier is a lot more reliant on the back end and schemes up more exotic looks, which has been complimented by several different sources, including Belichick.  I don't think he's dumb, just that he lacks focus on the front four and can't put together a complete and balanced defense.  I still think his primary issue is one of philosophy.

[Ann]

And then there is this...
 

 

[Core Four]

19 minutes ago, Ann said:

The article is behind a paywall that I didn't care to pay for... if you care, you  gotta pay. 🙂
 

 

 

For some reason I was able to view and read the entire article.  Anyway, it was interesting and presented some salient points.  I took a few snippets which kind of gives the gist of the article, as well as what we have been discussing.  Te article doesn't put McDermott in a good light, at all.  It seems like he is providing cover for Frazier, as well as his own screw-up at the end of the game and doesn't appear to be too concerned.  IMO, if this article is 100% true, McD probably should be fired.

 

Quote

Two days later, he added nothing: “Our execution, I wish was different. I wish our execution was different.”

Five weeks later, his talking point didn’t change one iota.

No amount of filibustering on and on about the fans will change the fact that he supplied those same fans zero explanation for their torment. But, fine. That’s his prerogative, I suppose. Surely, McDermott said more to his team behind the scenes. Surely, he stood in front of everyone and detailed what went down those fateful 13 seconds and/or provided a sense of real closure because, after all, these are the people who matter most. The players and the coaches who’ve sacrificed so much for him in the name of accountability.

Only, he did not. He held a generic, “We’ll grow from this”-themed address. The position coaches met with their players, then with the personnel department for year-end summaries on each player and… goodbye. Have a nice offseason. That’s it. Nothing was shared openly amongst players and coaches alike. Everything ended very “abruptly,” one team source said.

Many were left wanting more.

“You preach accountability,” one player said. “But you don’t practice it.”

.

.

.

The conclusion? This loss is on the head coach. Not the players. The coach. As the page

turns on the football calendar this month, that is a concern.

.

.

.

Said one player: “Everybody knew that if we just beat Kansas City, we would’ve beat any team.” And another: “We definitely would’ve won the Super Bowl.” As much as the talking heads love repeating the fact that we’ll see Allen and Mahomes duke it out in games like this forever, players know the hard truth.

[IDBillzFan]

It was fun while it lasted.

[IDBillzFan]

Nice to see some fans not overreact.

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

 

[Arm of Harm]

19 minutes ago, Core Four said:

 

For some reason I was able to view and read the entire article.  Anyway, it was interesting and presented some salient points.  I took a few snippets which kind of gives the gist of the article, as well as what we have been discussing.  Te article doesn't put McDermott in a good light, at all.  It seems like he is providing cover for Frazier, as well as his own screw-up at the end of the game and doesn't appear to be too concerned.  IMO, if this article is 100% true, McD probably should be fired.

 

.

.

.

The conclusion? This loss is on the head coach. Not the players. The coach. As the page

turns on the football calendar this month, that is a concern.

.

.

.

Said one player: “Everybody knew that if we just beat Kansas City, we would’ve beat any team.” And another: “We definitely would’ve won the Super Bowl.” As much as the talking heads love repeating the fact that we’ll see Allen and Mahomes duke it out in games like this forever, players know the hard truth.

I was able to read a long opening stretch of the article, including the portions you’d quoted. Then I encountered the words, “here’s what happened and where the Buffalo Bills go from here.” That’s when I came up against the paywall. I suspect there’s more to the article than maybe you first realized, unless you were able to continue reading after the “here’s what happened” portion. 
 

On another matter, no one in this thread has called Frazier stupid. However, the vast majority of people don’t have the talent to be great Axis and Allies players. Nor, I suspect, do the vast majority have the talent to be great defensive coordinators. I’ve seen nothing to indicate that Frazier has any particular knack or gift for the position. He seems like someone without any particular talent for the task who’s worked reasonably hard. Problem there is that the NFL’s other coordinators also work hard, and many of them have actual talent to augment the effects of their hard work. I suspect Frazier is better-suited to being a position coach than a coordinator. There’s nothing wrong in that, no shame in that. Being a good position coach (assuming he is in fact good) puts him at a well above-average income in a demanding job. Better to do a job like that well, than to spoil his own team’s chances for a Super Bowl with playcalling that does not rise to the level of rudimentary competence. 

[Core Four]

8 minutes ago, Arm of Harm said:

I suspect Frazier is better-suited to being a position coach than a coordinator.

 

Totally agree.  I think Frazier is better suited as a DB coach.  He is clueless as to how to successfully utilize the front seven.