Russia Russia Russia

[devnull]

6 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

Not how NATO membership works.

 

Wish it did, though.  Would make NATO much more interesting.

Because NATO doesn't do covert Ops

 

Right

[Koko]

10 minutes ago, devnull said:

Because NATO doesn't do covert Ops

 

Right

 

Not without the approval of the good folks at MGM.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

3 hours ago, devnull said:

Because NATO doesn't do covert Ops

 

Right

 

Not as a condition of membership, they don't.

 

And even aside from that...they probably don't.  Do you have any idea how hard it would be to keep a covert op covert in an organization containing 30 different countries?  Individual countries do...but not NATO as a whole.

[Robs House]

https://chroniclesmagazine.org/web/the-ideological-tyranny-of-liberal-interventionism/

 

"American and Ukrainian politicians—along with their loyal supporters—are not actually interested in real support for the Ukrainian people. What they want is compliance and consensus for their foreign policy endeavors."

Edited October 16, 2022 by Robs House

[Nouseforaname]

5 minutes ago, Robs House said:

https://chroniclesmagazine.org/web/the-ideological-tyranny-of-liberal-interventionism/

 

"American and Ukrainian politicians—along with their loyal supporters—are not actually interested in real support for the Ukrainian people. What they want is compliance and consensus for their foreign policy endeavors."

As someone who was labeled a « conditioned neo con » because I supported Ukraine and didn’t think zielinsky was bad disagrees with this take.

 

There are a shit load of sock puppets who will jump on anyone who states an opinion that doesn’t fully support Ukraine, there is also the other side of the coin if you look in the right places.

 

Tribalism exists on the internet and it has taken over the discussion.  

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

3 minutes ago, Robs House said:

https://chroniclesmagazine.org/web/the-ideological-tyranny-of-liberal-interventionism/

 

"American and Ukrainian politicians—along with their loyal supporters—are not actually interested in real support for the Ukrainian people. What they want is compliance and consensus for their foreign policy endeavors."

 

Less foreign policy endeavors than domestic policy endeavors.  

 

Because for progressives, it's pretty much the same thing, be they 18th Century French Jacobins, 20th Century Leninists, or 21st Century American liberal Democrats.  Foreign policy is merely a projection of domestic policy on foreign countries. 

 

Go ahead...just try to name a foreign policy from a Democratic administration since (including) the Clinton administration that wasn't a US domestic policy applied to a foreign country.  You can't.  

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

3 minutes ago, Nouseforaname said:

As someone who was labeled a « conditioned neo con » because I supported Ukraine and didn’t think zielinsky was bad disagrees with this take.

 

There are a shit load of sock puppets who will jump on anyone who states an opinion that doesn’t fully support Ukraine, there is also the other side of the coin if you look in the right places.

 

 

As someone who's labeled largely the same, and shares your views to no small degree, I agree with the take.

 

Simply because American progressives don't see people as real.  They see them as archetypes.  They support the Ukrainian people in a very solipsistic sense as some sort of a concept, and not as "people."  

[Robs House]

There seems to be a lot of this coming from the Ukraine cult.

 

 

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 minute ago, Robs House said:

There seems to be a lot of this coming from the Ukraine cult.

 

 

 

 

What does this even mean?

 

Are they complaining that Elon Musk is acting the same way as they beg social media giants to censor people who disagree with them?  Are they saying that Elon Musk's private companies shouldn't get to act as private companies they same way they say Facebook and Twitter do?  What is this &#%$ery?

[devnull]

7 minutes ago, Robs House said:

There seems to be a lot of this coming from the Ukraine cult.

 

 

 

 

So Musk gives away his services for free for several months.

 

Then he asks somebody to pay for the services he was eating the cost, and is now an agent of the enemy of the people he was helping?

[Billsandhorns]

53 minutes ago, devnull said:

 

So Musk gives away his services for free for several months.

 

Then he asks somebody to pay for the services he was eating the cost, and is now an agent of the enemy of the people he was helping?

He was also told to &#%$-off by a Ukraine politician and was doing so

[Nouseforaname]

8 hours ago, Billsandhorns said:

He was also told to &#%$-off by a Ukraine politician and was doing so

 

 

Not all of them.  
 

 

 

 

[snafu]

11 hours ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

Less foreign policy endeavors than domestic policy endeavors.  

 

Because for progressives, it's pretty much the same thing, be they 18th Century French Jacobins, 20th Century Leninists, or 21st Century American liberal Democrats.  Foreign policy is merely a projection of domestic policy on foreign countries. 

 

Go ahead...just try to name a foreign policy from a Democratic administration since (including) the Clinton administration that wasn't a US domestic policy applied to a foreign country.  You can't.  

Isn’t it that way with every administration in pretty much every country?  Foreign policy decisions and actions are never really foreign/domestic binary matters. Governments can have foreign policy reasons for taking foreign policy actions, but no country is so altruistic to ever do that without looking into how it benefits its own domestic population. (Except maybe in the case of disaster relief or accepting refugees.)

 

I get your point, but I think you might be more accurate if you said US domestic politics, not policy. And even then, both of our political parties suffer from this, especially every two years.

 

 

[Billsandhorns]

1 hour ago, Nouseforaname said:

 

 

Not all of them.  
 

 

 

 

Never said all of them and it's been reported that Elon turned it back on

[Robs House]

These are things that make curious about what's really going on over there.

 

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

3 hours ago, snafu said:

Isn’t it that way with every administration in pretty much every country?  Foreign policy decisions and actions are never really foreign/domestic binary matters. Governments can have foreign policy reasons for taking foreign policy actions, but no country is so altruistic to ever do that without looking into how it benefits its own domestic population. (Except maybe in the case of disaster relief or accepting refugees.)

 

I get your point, but I think you might be more accurate if you said US domestic politics, not policy. And even then, both of our political parties suffer from this, especially every two years.

 

 

 

I'm going to split hairs here and say: no.  There's a difference between domestic interests that drive foreign policy, and domestic policies driving foreign policy.  And there's a fine, but distinct, difference between interests and policies.  

 

An excellent example being: it's in our domestic interest to maintain cordial relations with Saudi Arabia, to keep oil prices low and stable.  But it violates several of the Democrats' domestic policies: LGBT rights, freedom of the press, "saving democracy," etc.

 

Politics plays a role, and is a driver for both parties...but politics is a significant driver of interests more than policies.  But what you see from the Republicans, the past 30 years, is more realpolitik.  Democrats, since the 1996 mid-terms and Mavis &#%$ing Leno's speech, have consistently formulated foreign policy based on the ridiculous premise that domestic policies, rather than interests, should be forced on other countries.  Witness the Arab Spring, as a prime example.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 hour ago, Robs House said:

These are things that make curious about what's really going on over there.

 

 

 

Adoption of war orphans is a common practice.

 

This is nothing more than propagandizing of it, on both sides.  

[Foxx]

Really murky

 

[Foxx]

Universe strikes again...

 

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Worth it.