afc east Dolphins Chat

[Foxx]

2 minutes ago, Joe said:

is he even going to PLAY this year?

 

With the time period for recovery from an ACL these days being 6/9 months, he may be ready week 1. He might not be up to full speed but he would still be pretty good.

[IDBillzFan]

1 hour ago, Foxx said:

With the time period for recovery from an ACL these days being 6/9 months, he may be ready week 1. He might not be up to full speed but he would still be pretty good.

 

I think 6/9 months is pretty optimistic. David Chao, a doctor who makes the rounds in the NFL evaluating player injuries, says OBJ should recover faster than most (oddly enough) because this is his second tear, and players return faster from their second tear. And Chao puts OBJ at mid-football season. 

 

My sense is we'll be lucky to get Tre back by November. Hopefully he's back in football shape by the playoffs.

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, IDBillzFan said:

 

I think 6/9 months is pretty optimistic. David Chao, a doctor who makes the rounds in the NFL evaluating player injuries, says OBJ should recover faster than most (oddly enough) because this is his second tear, and players return faster from their second tear. And Chao puts OBJ at mid-football season. 

 

My sense is we'll be lucky to get Tre back by November. Hopefully he's back in football shape by the playoffs.

For Tre I see early November as his most likely return date too. Maaaaaybe late October. 
 

Depending on what they do at CB in the coming weeks/months before camp, they might try to give him even longer to recover. That’s why (imo) it’s really important they sign a vet (cough - Haden) and draft a rookie somewhere in the top 2-3 rounds, just to give Tre all the time he needs to come back at his best. 

[Ann]

Miami fans are something else.

 

Met a Dolphins fan today (contractor) who was pretty hopeful Tua was going to "take Josh Allen's year three leap."

 

🤪

 

By the end of the conversation he was on to Miami using their first round picks next year to trade up for a new, high first round quarterback.

 

It must be difficult fluctuating that much.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

3 hours ago, Ann said:

Miami fans are something else.

 

Met a Dolphins fan today (contractor) who was pretty hopeful Tua was going to "take Josh Allen's year three leap."

 

🤪

 

By the end of the conversation he was on to Miami using their first round picks next year to trade up for a new, high first round quarterback.

 

It must be difficult fluctuating that much.

 

Were Bills fans ever that clueless?

 

I don't recall, during the 20-year wander through the desert between Kelly and Allen, Bills fans ever thinking "THIS year is <insert QB>'s year!"  Mostly it was "We have to use every draft pick on a QB until we find one."

[Core Four]

17 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

Were Bills fans ever that clueless?

 

I don't recall, during the 20-year wander through the desert between Kelly and Allen, Bills fans ever thinking "THIS year is <insert QB>'s year!"  Mostly it was "We have to use every draft pick on a QB until we find one."

 

I think there was real hope with Trent Edwards, you know, because Bill Walsh told Marv Levy to draft him.  Other than that, maybe JP Losman but that fizzled out quick.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

44 minutes ago, Core Four said:

 

I think there was real hope with Trent Edwards, you know, because Bill Walsh told Marv Levy to draft him.  Other than that, maybe JP Losman but that fizzled out quick.

 

Trent Edwards fizzled out quick, too.  I remember people saying "We've found our franchise quarterback"...but that didn't last eight games.  

 

I never remember large numbers of people saying "Year 1 was bad, and year 2 was bad...but year 3, this is HIS year!"  Maybe a couple with EJ Manuel.  But never a long-term mass delusion like we see with Miami or New England fans this year.

[Alaska Darin]

Edwards never got over Adrian Wilson labeling him.   

[Core Four]

25 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

Edwards never got over Adrian Wilson labeling him.   

Yep, that was the end of Edwards.  He was doing ok before the Arizona game, but the concussion did him in...not a mentally tough guy.

[Foxx]

19 hours ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

I think 6/9 months is pretty optimistic. David Chao, a doctor who makes the rounds in the NFL evaluating player injuries, says OBJ should recover faster than most (oddly enough) because this is his second tear, and players return faster from their second tear. And Chao puts OBJ at mid-football season. 

 

My sense is we'll be lucky to get Tre back by November. Hopefully he's back in football shape by the playoffs.

 

19 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

For Tre I see early November as his most likely return date too. Maaaaaybe late October. 
 

Depending on what they do at CB in the coming weeks/months before camp, they might try to give him even longer to recover. That’s why (imo) it’s really important they sign a vet (cough - Haden) and draft a rookie somewhere in the top 2-3 rounds, just to give Tre all the time he needs to come back at his best. 

Agreed. 6/9 months is optimistic but not entirely out of the question.

 

Though, to be sure, the cases of Adrian Peterson and Amari Rodgers are outliers, they do represent that it is possible. In Peterson's instance, he not only returned 9 months after his ACL, but he led the league in rushing that year with over 2K yards. He also was the league MVP that season.

 

With Rodgers, while he came back in less than 6 months after his injury, the general consensus is that he was not at full strength that season.

 

Regarding Tre', we don't know a whole lot about his situation other than, he was injured on Nov 25th and had surgery on Dec. 14th. Two and a half weeks between injury and surgery. The team has been pretty tight lipped about his condition other than to say that White has been "competitive" in his rehab and that they might have to hold him back with how hard he is pushing. It was added that he is on track with the timeline set out. They also said that there really isn't a timeline so much as there are markers and that they will listen to their doctors and trainers' advice.

 

From Tre's injury to the beginning of TC will be roughly 7 months out. To the start of pre-season, roughly 8 months and the start of the season, roughly 9 and a half months. I don't know that we see him during the pre-season at all but I would think he would be at training camp working out to some extent.  We will have to see whether or not he is able to go for the start of the season, I think reacting to what another players movements are and can be, can be somewhat more stressful on a joint than you knowing which direction your going and what you are going to do. To me, as was alluded to, it is more important to see him ready for the latter part of the season and playoffs than it is for him to be out there at the beginning of the season.

 

With regard to ACL's in general; there was a time when it was career ending. Then it was a two year rehab and today, they say it is anywhere from 6/9 months to 9/12 months depending upon who you read and the dynamics involved. Tomorrow, it may be measured in weeks and not months as there is a new procedure in the pipeline that is currently going through trials. Something called the Lavender Fertilized ACL.

 

If they think Tre' is not going to be ready for the start of the season, I would like to see a CB drafted high and another quality one taken off the free agent market, just to be sure we are going to be able to hold seve with all the off-season action we have seen in the AFC this year so far.

[Figster]

15 hours ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

Trent Edwards fizzled out quick, too.  I remember people saying "We've found our franchise quarterback"...but that didn't last eight games.  

 

I never remember large numbers of people saying "Year 1 was bad, and year 2 was bad...but year 3, this is HIS year!"  Maybe a couple with EJ Manuel.  But never a long-term mass delusion like we see with Miami or New England fans this year.

I think you just ignored us, and called us all idiots ;  )

Edited March 26, 2022 by Figster

[CarpetCrawler]

17 hours ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

Were Bills fans ever that clueless?

 

I don't recall, during the 20-year wander through the desert between Kelly and Allen, Bills fans ever thinking "THIS year is <insert QB>'s year!"  Mostly it was "We have to use every draft pick on a QB until we find one."

 

I can remember a night game the Bills played back then, they interviewed Jim Kelly on the sidelines and he was praising Edwards to high heaven saying how the Bills found their QB at last. Edwards pretty much sucked after that. 

[Alaska Darin]

16 hours ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

I never remember large numbers of people saying "Year 1 was bad, and year 2 was bad...but year 3, this is HIS year!"  Maybe a couple with EJ Manuel.  But never a long-term mass delusion like we see with Miami or New England fans this year.

Manuel never showed anything that said he was more than "just a guy" (even in college). His best season was his rookie year when he started 10 games on an offense that ran for 2300+ yards.  He only started 7 more times for the BILLS the rest of his tenure.  Nice waste of a first rounder, Team Buddy/Dougie. 

 

I think my only fond memory of EJ's play was the GWD against Carolina, which only happened because of a PI that erased an interception.  I know there were some people ATOP that thought he should be given more PT because of where he was picked but he never earned that right.

 

Even as a rookie on an offense with literally one other real NFL player (Dawkins), Allen made at least a couple plays every single week that forced you take notice of his abilities.  Most importantly, they were from multiple different game facets.  He'd throw someone open, move around in the pocket to create time for guys to get open, take off and run for a first down, etc.

 

Tua looks like a really limited guy that will require a ton of surrounding talent and minimal adversity to be successful.  Even then, he likely never wins at a high rate against other top QBs - he simply doesn't have the intangibles to get it done.

[4merper4mer]

16 hours ago, Core Four said:

 

I think there was real hope with Trent Edwards, you know, because Bill Walsh told Marv Levy to draft him.  Other than that, maybe JP Losman but that fizzled out quick.

That was clearly a practical joke on Walsh’s part.

[Figster]

8 hours ago, Alaska Darin said:

Manuel never showed anything that said he was more than "just a guy" (even in college). His best season was his rookie year when he started 10 games on an offense that ran for 2300+ yards.  He only started 7 more times for the BILLS the rest of his tenure.  Nice waste of a first rounder, Team Buddy/Dougie. 

 

I think my only fond memory of EJ's play was the GWD against Carolina, which only happened because of a PI that erased an interception.  I know there were some people ATOP that thought he should be given more PT because of where he was picked but he never earned that right.

 

Even as a rookie on a team with literally one other real NFL player (Dawkins), Allen made at least a couple plays every single week that forced you take notice of his abilities.  Most importantly, they were from multiple different game facets.  He'd throw someone open, move around in the pocket to create time for guys to get open, take off and run for a first down, etc.

 

Tua looks like a really limited guy that will require a ton of surrounding talent and minimal adversity to be successful.  Even then, he likely never wins at a high rate against other top QBs - he simply doesn't have the intangibles to get it done.

 Limited when it comes to arm strength perhaps. Tua has a ton of talent around him. He's got good mobility, quick release,  gets the ball to his play makers on time and with pin point accuracy IMO.

 

I wouldn't underestimate him with WR's like Waddle and Hill...

Edited March 27, 2022 by Figster

[Alaska Darin]

6 minutes ago, CarpetCrawler said:

 

I can remember a night game we were on back then, they interviewed Jim Kelly on the sidelines and he was praising Edwards to high heaven saying how the Bills found their QB at last. Edwards pretty much sucked after that. 

Edwards had every card in the deck stacked against him:

1.  Jauron

2. Schoenert

3. REALLY, REALLY bad OLine play (think Dockery/Langston Walker days with Duke friggin' Preston at center)

4.  Bad Tight Ends (Robert Royal was the best of what might have been the worst collection in team history).

5.  Lee Evans was the only real receiving threat.

 

Most QBs are ruined by bad organizations.  We are VERY lucky that JA had the background/upbringing he did because that first season woulda broke a lot of guys.

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Alaska Darin said:

Edwards had every card in the deck stacked against him:

1.  Jauron

2. Schoenert

3. REALLY, REALLY bad OLine play (think Dockery/Langston Walker days with Duke friggin' Preston at center)

4.  Bad Tight Ends (Robert Royal was the best of what might have been the worst collection in team history).

5.  Lee Evans was the only real receiving threat.

 

Most QBs are ruined by bad organizations.  We are VERY lucky that JA had the background/upbringing he did because that first season woulda broke a lot of guys.

You left off the top card in the deck stacked against Edwards:

 

He absolutely utterly and completely sucked.

 

I had the “pleasure” of watching him play in NE at one point.  Had 50 yard line seats in practically the last row of the stadium.  Jaworski view.  You could see the entire field.  NE literally didn’t bother covering anyone 8 yards past the LOS.  He had pressure at times but whether he did or not, he would never throw it downfield.  It was sad.  He was terrible.  At least JP  had some excitement while sucking because he’d try.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 hour ago, Alaska Darin said:

Edwards had every card in the deck stacked against him:

1.  Jauron

2. Schoenert

3. REALLY, REALLY bad OLine play (think Dockery/Langston Walker days with Duke friggin' Preston at center)

4.  Bad Tight Ends (Robert Royal was the best of what might have been the worst collection in team history).

5.  Lee Evans was the only real receiving threat.

 

Most QBs are ruined by bad organizations.  We are VERY lucky that JA had the background/upbringing he did because that first season woulda broke a lot of guys.

 

Funny thing is, on the play where Edwards got crushed by Wilson...except for not accounting for Wilson off the edge, they blocked well.

 

Hell, Edwards even stood in there, took the hit, and completed the pass to James Hardy.  Probably the last time he didn't look like a deer in the headlights.  I don't think I've ever seen another play where a player's career was basically ended because of what amounted to psychological, not physical, trauma.

[Deranged Rhino]

I’ve always been a homer, to me that goes hand in hand with being a fan. The drought years were not kind to optimists like myself, especially when it came to evaluating Bills’ QBs. 
 

I gave EJ every benefit of the doubt, talked myself into thinking maybe he can be the guy (never that he WAS the guy - key difference). I wanted him to be, because if he was the guy then the drought would end. 
 

Thankfully 17 made that outlook pay off🥳

[Alaska Darin]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

You left off the top card in the deck stacked against Edwards:

 

He absolutely utterly and completely sucked.

 

I had the “pleasure” of watching him play in NE at one point.  Had 50 yard line seats in practically the last row of the stadium.  Jaworski view.  You could see the entire field.  NE literally didn’t bother covering anyone 8 yards past the LOS.  He had pressure at times but whether he did or not, he would never throw it downfield.  It was sad.  He was terrible.  At least JP  had some excitement while sucking because he’d try.

He would have had to be in the top 1% of prospects to even stand a chance to overcome the situation(s).  It's the nature of the beast in the NFL - very few guys overcome serious early career trauma on the way to measurable success.  Off the top of my head...Bradshaw, Steve Young, Jim Plunkett, Phil Simms (arguably), & Aikman. 

 

Edwards shared the QB room with only Losman his first two seasons and had 2 different OCs (imagine the 2 of them trying to figure out situational football and film breakdown under Fairchild, then Shoenert, and finally AVP - none of whom had ever been an NFL OC before).  His third year they brought in Fitz and Brian Brohm, making Fitz the most accomplished NFL QB he was ever in a position room with.

 

Whatever limited chance he had coming into the league was completely destroyed by organizational ineptitude.  It's easy to just blame the player but it's also pretty lazy.