COVID-19 Viruses and Vaccines

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

29 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

What is often lost in all these discussions about choice is the reality that vaccines are a public health tool to battle as orange man in chief would say, an invisbile enemy.  If COVID was more lethal and as contagious as it is now, would you be against mandates?

 

I've argued in the past for vaccine mandates for smallpox, should it ever break out again, and for childhood diseases such as measles and mumps.  

 

The people who vilified me for that are the ones that now argue for mandates against a much, much less serious illness.

[Taro T]

48 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

What is often lost in all these discussions about choice is the reality that vaccines are a public health tool to battle as orange man in chief would say, an invisbile enemy.  If COVID was more lethal and as contagious as it is now, would you be against mandates?

 

How much more lethal are we talking?  AND how close are we in that scenario to having widely available effective treatments?  What are the other treatment & prevention options?  Is the vaccine against this more virulent strain expected to be more effective, less effective, or about the same as what we have now?

 

Without answers to those kinds of questions, it's hard to give an answer to your question.

 

Also, in your scenario, do the vast predominance of comorbidity factors outside of age continue to be lifestyle induced?

[Nouseforaname]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

How much more lethal are we talking?  AND how close are we in that scenario to having widely available effective treatments?  What are the other treatment & prevention options?  Is the vaccine against this more virulent strain expected to be more effective, less effective, or about the same as what we have now?

 

Without answers to those kinds of questions, it's hard to give an answer to your question.

 

Also, in your scenario, do the vast predominance of comorbidity factors outside of age continue to be lifestyle induced?

 

Spanish flu lethal?

 

As much as treatments can help, vaccines have been the best method of effectively snuffing out viruses. 

 

[Nouseforaname]

36 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

I've argued in the past for vaccine mandates for smallpox, should it ever break out again, and for childhood diseases such as measles and mumps.  

 

The people who vilified me for that are the ones that now argue for mandates against a much, much less serious illness.

 

I have friends who laughed at me because I got the flu vaccine who were basically calling for the army to come in to stop people from violating social distancing rules.

Funny how minds change when people are scared.

[GG1]

3 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

Spanish flu lethal?

 

As much as treatments can help, vaccines have been the best method of effectively snuffing out viruses. 

 

 

Not when you're getting such a high rate of break through infections because the virus mutates.

 

Herd immunity is the most effective, and that's through a greater proportion of people developing their own immunity.  The Covid vaccines get you there faster and with less lethal side effects, but it's becoming more obvious that we need more people to bear through the virus to eradicate it.

 

Which means that Australia & NZ are totally &#%$ed.

[Nouseforaname]

4 minutes ago, GG1 said:

 

Not when you're getting such a high rate of break through infections because the virus mutates.

 

Herd immunity is the most effective, and that's through a greater proportion of people developing their own immunity.  The Covid vaccines get you there faster and with less lethal side effects, but it's becoming more obvious that we need more people to bear through the virus to eradicate it.

 

Which means that Australia & NZ are totally &#%$ed.

 

Australia and NZ are at very low levels of vaccination (based on memory).

 

Compare that to the province of Quebec which has enough vaccination for herd immunity at over 83% and we're seeing the results.  

[Ann]

13 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

I have friends who laughed at me because I got the flu vaccine who were basically calling for the army to come in to stop people from violating social distancing rules.

Funny how minds change when people are scared.

Always the best time to be making widespread decisions on public health and welfare.

[Nouseforaname]

3 minutes ago, Ann said:

Always the best time to be making widespread decisions on public health and welfare.

 

To paraphrase @NCBillsFan, COVID was a test.  We aren't ready as a species for a real threat.

[Taro T]

33 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

Spanish flu lethal?

 

As much as treatments can help, vaccines have been the best method of effectively snuffing out viruses. 

 

 

In the US, COVID will likely end up killing as many as the Spanish Flu did over a comparable time frame.  So, your more lethal virus (higher %age of population dead, but with far worse treatment options, so that %age likely would be similar to COVID's today) is actually about as lethal as COVID.

[Nouseforaname]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

In the US, COVID will likely end up killing as many as the Spanish Flu did over a comparable time frame.  So, your more lethal virus (higher %age of population dead, but with far worse treatment options, so that %age likely would be similar to COVID's today) is actually about as lethal as COVID.

 

Not the same comparisom if you look at the amount of people living in the US.

 

1/150 Spanish flu vs 1/500 for COVID.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

Not the same comparisom if you look at the amount of people living in the US.

 

Agreed that there was a greater %age of the population that died.  That's what the statement "higher %age of population dead" meant.  But medical treatment is so far advanced beyond what we had in the late teens & early 1920's, it really seems those death rates would've been lower had they had modern medicine available to them.  So, in light of it being an apples to oranges comparison, going off total mortalities seems relevant.

 

Which makes the 2 situations quite comparable.

[Nouseforaname]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

 

Agreed that there was a greater %age of the population that died.  That's what the statement "higher %age of population dead" meant.  But medical treatment so so far advanced beyond what we had in the late teens & early 1920's, it really seems those death rates would've been lower had they had modern medicine available to them.  So, in light of it being an apples to oranges comparison, going off total mortalities seems relevant.

 

Which makes the 2 situations quite comparable.

 

In 1918-1920, if a vaccine existed, would there be as much resistance as there is now?

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

57 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

I have friends who laughed at me because I got the flu vaccine who were basically calling for the army to come in to stop people from violating social distancing rules.

Funny how minds change when people are scared.

 

I have family who wouldn't have their kids vaccinated, who insist not getting the COVID vaccine is murder.

 

People fear what they're told to fear, be it MMR-related autism or COVID's 70% hospitalization rate.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

12 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Agreed that there was a greater %age of the population that died.  That's what the statement "higher %age of population dead" meant.  But medical treatment is so far advanced beyond what we had in the late teens & early 1920's, it really seems those death rates would've been lower had they had modern medicine available to them.  So, in light of it being an apples to oranges comparison, going off total mortalities seems relevant.

 

Which makes the 2 situations quite comparable.

 

Treatments for viral diseases haven't advanced much in the past 100 years.  Prevention has...but not treatment.  Most of the advances are in the past 30, and are still of limited efficacy.

 

When it comes to viruses, treatment is still little more than basic nursing and supportive care.

[Spartacus]

2 hours ago, Meazza said:

 

Spanish flu lethal?

 

As much as treatments can help, vaccines have been the best method of effectively snuffing out viruses. 

 

this is an urban myth propagated by Big Pharma 

as with Covid, vaccines only reduce symptoms

 

Arguably vaccines have been introduced after the underlying virus has already burned itself out 

The virus is already gone and Big Pharma jumps in to claim the credit for its vaccine.

 

The covid strains before Delta were already burned out in the US by Feb 2021

98% of all new cases were the Delta

Coincidentally, the vaccines were rolled out starting in Jan/Feb to claims of rousing success.

 

unfortunately the Delta has taken off and run wild in tandem with the ramp up of the vaccine program. 

 

 

[Spartacus]

2 hours ago, GG1 said:

 

Not when you're getting such a high rate of break through infections because the virus mutates.

 

Herd immunity is the most effective, and that's through a greater proportion of people developing their own immunity.  The Covid vaccines get you there faster and with less lethal side effects, but it's becoming more obvious that we need more people to bear through the virus to eradicate it.

 

Which means that Australia & NZ are totally &#%$ed.

not if they allow early treatment with HCW /zinc, ivermectin, vit D

[NCBillsFan]

20 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

this is an urban myth propagated by Big Pharma 

as with Covid, vaccines only reduce symptoms

 

Arguably vaccines have been introduced after the underlying virus has already burned itself out 

The virus is already gone and Big Pharma jumps in to claim the credit for its vaccine.

 

The covid strains before Delta were already burned out in the US by Feb 2021

98% of all new cases were the Delta

Coincidentally, the vaccines were rolled out starting in Jan/Feb to claims of rousing success.

 

unfortunately the Delta has taken off and run wild in tandem with the ramp up of the vaccine program. 

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

not if they allow early treatment with HCW /zinc, ivermectin, vit D

 

The daily double of idiocy. Over and over and over.

[Nouseforaname]

9 minutes ago, NCBillsFan said:

 

 

The daily double of idiocy. Over and over and over.

On this side of the world please no personal insults.

 

 

[NCBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Meazza said:

On this side of the world please no personal insults.

 

 

 

I hear you.  I intentionally called the takes, that are parroted anyway, idiocy.

[Nouseforaname]

3 minutes ago, NCBillsFan said:

 

I hear you.  I intentionally called the takes, that are parroted anyway, idiocy.

Fair enough.  But at this point, he’s just a bot.  No better than billstime.