COVID-19 Viruses and Vaccines

[Taro T]

17 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

That reason could be used not to take most drugs on the market.  I really don't think the same level of scrutiny is applied to all other pharma products.

 

As I understand it, there are zero instances in the history of vaccines where adverse side effects manifested years in the future.  The side effects of vaccines are known in the first month including the Covid vax.  This argument like many others is based on misinformation.  3+ billion doses have been administered over the past year.  Based on everything I've read, if there were nasty side effects we would have already seen them.

 

Buffalo Bill Tommy Sweeney developed myocarditis after having Covid.

 

The best argument against the vax at this point in the game is that it doesn't guarantee immunity so whats the point?  If the vax means I have higher chance of never contracting the disease, or mild symptoms if I do, and it virtually guarantees that I won't leave my widow with $250k in debt after a month long stay in the ICU, then I think its worth it.  

 

This is not a typical vaccine (at least the non-J&J versions aren't).  Rather than simply putting some dead virus into your body and letting your immune system figure out how to deal w/ that "invader" this is the first mRNA approved vaccine which causes the body (specifically muscle tissue) to create the virus' spike protein to then enable the body to figure out how to deal w/ the invader.

 

As this is the 1st to actually get out of clinical trials, it is pretty presumptuous to say there WILL NOT be LT side effects.  The SARS vaccine never made it out of clinical trials, in no small part because it seemed to increase the likelihood of catching SARS after an initial infection.

 

We are in the midst of literally the world's largest beta trial ever.  Overall, things are looking positive.  But to claim we know the results of the trial prior to completing the trial seems a bit presumptuous.

 

 

And, to your 1st sentence, absolutely, & when we see how many drugs recalled every year, waiting to see how they work in others before taking them yourself is, barring an urgent condition, a wise choice.  IMHO.  YMMV.

[Jauronimo]

12 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

To paraphrase something I saw recently: if there needs to be incentives, then bribes, then threats, then mandates to get people to get a free shot designed to save their life, perhaps it's worth questioning why all of that is taking place.

 

Frankly, I won't be convinced until all the late night comic shows do a special one-night-only event like they're doing for climate change. THEN you know they're serious.

Incentives make the world go round.  What do you think our 401k system is? Tax breaks for new businesses, tax allowances for kids, first time home buyer credits.  All of these things are in place to incentivize behavior that we as a society deem optimal.

 

That is the million dollar question.  I don't think its so much a reflection on the actual shot as it is a reflection on a society where a growing number of people now believe the world is flat. 

 

The mightiest nation in the history of earth brought down by the stupid crap our crazy aunts are sharing on Facebook.

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

This is not a typical vaccine (at least the non-J&J versions aren't).  Rather than simply putting some dead virus into your body and letting your immune system figure out how to deal w/ that "invader" this is the first mRNA approved vaccine which causes the body (specifically muscle tissue) to create the virus' spike protein to then enable the body to figure out how to deal w/ the invader.

 

As this is the 1st to actually get out of clinical trials, it is pretty presumptuous to say there WILL NOT be LT side effects.  The SARS vaccine never made it out of clinical trials, in no small part because it seemed to increase the likelihood of catching SARS after an initial infection.

 

We are in the midst of literally the world's largest beta trial ever.  Overall, things are looking positive.  But to claim we know the results of the trial prior to completing the trial seems a bit presumptuous.

Is there any medical basis for suggesting there could long term effects or is the point that the future is unknowable?

 

I have not read anything credible which suggests the mRNA based vax could have effects which would manifest years into the future.  Until I do this argument reads to me as fear for the sake of fear.

 

[Taro T]

25 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Is there any medical basis for suggesting there could long term effects or is the point that the future is unknowable?

 

I have not read anything credible which suggests the mRNA based vax could have effects which would manifest years into the future.  Until I do this argument reads to me as fear for the sake of fear.

 

 

Until there have been actual studies performed it is hard to say there is more than anecdotal evidence which you will reject.

 

And being a realist (stuff almost NEVER works the way we expect it to out when 1st brought out of the gate & there are literally 100's of medicines & medical devices that have been recalled AFTER having been approved AFTER fully completing the FDA approval process) is not the same as being fearful for fears sake.

 

There is a TON of politics involved in the approval processes for these vaccines.  Don't believe it?  Look at what just happened with the Pfizer booster approval.  Both the FDA & the CDC approved the use of the boosters for people over 65 & w/ certain medical conditions (for those over 50 for the FDA panel recommendation, didn't see the CDC panel's age cutoffs there) but both voted against approving it for more general use.  The FDA panel voted 16-2 against & the CDC panel said Nay by a 9-6 margin, but the CDC Director approved it anyway.

 

The FDA gave the Pfizer vaccine 2 shot program full approval even though several of their studies won't be complete until 2023.

 

Doubt I will continue with this discussion because expect we will be talking past each other rather than with each other.  Plus, have a lot of stuff to still complete today & have been horribly inefficient this AM.

 

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

Just got back from the doctor, where I got a COVID booster.  Didn't need it...but I told them I specifically wanted to test this magnetism nonsense, and they were supportive. 

 

Applied a neodymium magnet to the site...and lo and behold, it stuck.  Put the same magnet on the same spot on my opposite shoulder, and it fell off.  Put a refrigerator magnet on the site, and it didn't stick. 

 

Also put pieces of plastic, paper, ceramic, wood, and non-ferrous metal on the site, and they all stuck.  Put them on the opposite shoulder, and they fell off.

 

Then swabbed the opposite shoulder with an alcohol wipe, just as the nurse did for the injection.  Put the neodymium magnet on it...it stuck, as did the plastic, paper, ceramic, wood, and metal.  

 

That's how you investigate a claim.  It's not magnetism, it's clean skin.

 

 

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

 

Until there have been actual studies performed it is hard to say there is more than anecdotal evidence which you will reject.

 

And being a realist (stuff almost NEVER works the way we expect it to out when 1st brought out of the gate & there are literally 100's of medicines & medical devices that have been recalled AFTER having been approved AFTER fully completing the FDA approval process) is not the same as being fearful for fears sake.

 

There is a TON of politics involved in the approval processes for these vaccines.  Don't believe it?  Look at what just happened with the Pfizer booster approval.  Both the FDA & the CDC approved the use of the boosters for people over 65 & w/ certain medical conditions (for those over 50 for the FDA panel recommendation, didn't see the CDC panel's age cutoffs there) but both voted against approving it for more general use.  The FDA panel voted 16-2 against & the CDC panel said Nay by a 9-6 margin, but the CDC Director approved it anyway.

 

The FDA gave the Pfizer vaccine 2 shot program full approval even though several of their studies won't be complete until 2023.

 

Doubt I will continue with this discussion because expect we will be talking past each other rather than with each other.  Plus, have a lot of stuff to still complete today & have been horribly inefficient this AM.

 

 

I understand the points above.  I follow the logic.  It would carry a lot more weight with me if anyone could point to a single, specific, quantifiable, future risk associated with the taking the vaccine. 

[IDBillzFan]

58 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Incentives make the world go round.  What do you think our 401k system is? Tax breaks for new businesses, tax allowances for kids, first time home buyer credits.  All of these things are in place to incentivize behavior that we as a society deem optimal.

 

That is the million dollar question.  I don't think its so much a reflection on the actual shot as it is a reflection on a society where a growing number of people now believe the world is flat. 

 

The mightiest nation in the history of earth brought down by the stupid crap our crazy aunts are sharing on Facebook.

 

Those are kind of disingenuous, to be put it mildly. Let me know when the federal government mandates you take a first-time homebuyer tax credit because you didn't take advantage of it when it was just a suggestion. Let me know when the federal government is telling everyone that the housing market collapse is a direct result of people like you who refused to buy a house with the tax credit. 

 

"It's a housing collapse of the unmortgaged!"

 

I do agree with you about the stupid crazy aunts on FB. I can't believe how many stupid crazy aunts insisted health care is a human right just before they started insisting we should not provide health care to the unvaccinated. Or the crazy stupid aunt who keeps telling me "My body, my choice" only pertains to birthing people, but not young, healthy people with no need to get a vaccine.

[Nanker]

After the massive number of deaths on college campuses following the un-masked throngs of rabid college students attending their school’s football games the last few weeks, it’s plain for all to see that everyone must be Maxined for pubic safety or else attend and bring your own bodybag. 

[FROMPEOPLEWEKNOWATOP]

 

Get Maxined or stay home. #

 

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

Those are kind of disingenuous, to be put it mildly. Let me know when the federal government mandates you take a first-time homebuyer tax credit because you didn't take advantage of it when it was just a suggestion. Let me know when the federal government is telling everyone that the housing market collapse is a direct result of people like you who refused to buy a house with the tax credit. 

 

"It's a housing collapse of the unmortgaged!"

 

I do agree with you about the stupid crazy aunts on FB. I can't believe how many stupid crazy aunts insisted health care is a human right just before they started insisting we should not provide health care to the unvaccinated. Or the crazy stupid aunt who keeps telling me "My body, my choice" only pertains to birthing people, but not young, healthy people with no need to get a vaccine.

You suggested the idea of incentivization must mean the action is suspect and that is completely asinine.  The government often incentivizes good behavior rather than expect everyone will just act in their best interest because people are idiots.  This is a stupid hill to die on, but its your "right" to do so.

 

One of my crazy aunts is fully vaccinated against a host of diseases, has children that are full vaccinated against a host of diseases, accepts that these vaccinations are requirement for attending school and university and unironically thinks Covid vaccination requirements by private enterprises is some NEW form of medical tyranny and she blames the government! Talk about confused.  Shes the type who is all about "my rights" when some small business owner defends their decision not to sell a wedding cake to a same sex couple but rages when a private enterprise denies entrance to the unvaccinated.  Shes the type who used to post things like "just comply" and took glee in protestors getting stomped on last summer and now thinks public temper tantrums about mask mandates are the highest form of patriotic expression and bemoans the police state.  Even if I do agree with her from time to time its hard to ignore how wildly inconsistent she is.  

 

She shared this the other day and is in complete support. I really wonder how much value the right to die needlessly really has?

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2021/09/23/florida-gop-state-senator-reportedly-wants-to-review-non-covid-vaccine-mandates-for-schoolchildren/?sh=56b1e2c3545d

 

At least Diaz is consistent.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Jauronimo

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

2 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

I understand the points above.  I follow the logic.  It would carry a lot more weight with me if anyone could point to a single, specific, quantifiable, future risk associated with the taking the vaccine. 

 

The whole crux of the argument is that the risk isn't quantifiable.

[IDBillzFan]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

You suggested the idea of incentivization must mean the action is suspect and that is completely asinine.  The government often incentivizes good behavior rather than expect everyone will just act in their best interest because people are idiots.  This is a stupid hill to die on, but its your "right" to do so.

 

You're still missing the point, and you're not a dumbass, so I'll assume I'm not making my case correctly.

 

The incentivization doesn't mean the action is suspect. The incentivization says I can make a choice, and that choice is accepted, if not respected.

 

If it simply begins and ends with the incentivization, we're good. Incentives are good.

 

But it doesn't stop there. It leapt from incentivization to mandate, with threat of losing your job and income for non-compliance. That's bullshit. And that's where I become suspect. Especially when the people doing the mandating are stupid as a bag of rocks.

 

As an example, the governor of NY is about to fire a shitload of medical personnel tonight because they refuse to get the vaccine. The point Hochul is trying make? It's important for people to get the vaccine so they don't overwhelm the very hospitals she's about to hamstring with her embarrassingly ridiculous logic.

 

I will question this type of moronic authority all day, every day. How long before she's responsible for thousands of deaths at the overwhelmed, understaffed hospitals, and says this is because people won't get vaccinated.

 

That's the shit I'm fighting against. Not the incentives.

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

What I was just saying...

 

 

[GG1]

6 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Is there any medical basis for suggesting there could long term effects or is the point that the future is unknowable?

 

I have not read anything credible which suggests the mRNA based vax could have effects which would manifest years into the future.  Until I do this argument reads to me as fear for the sake of fear.

 

 

You can say the same about the general Covid-induced hysteria.

 

There are certainly ample reasons to still have questions about MRNA, which only four years ago was lethal to the test subjects.  Warpspeed seems to have fixed that particular issue, but please don't tell me that people shouldn't be questioning groundbreaking vaccine treatments which went from the lab to billions of doses in live humans in about 8 months.  

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 hour ago, IDBillzFan said:

What I was just saying...

 

 

 

Wait...what?  How's that working?  Is NYS firing unvaccinated staff in private hospitals, too?  Did they change licensing requirements to include "must be vaccinated" or something?

[Big Blitz]

 

 

In other words, never.  

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

13 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

In other words, never.  

 

The percentage of people with immunity required for herd immunity is 1-(1/R₀).  The delta variant of COVID has an R₀ of as much as 9 (though probably closer to 6).  So the threshold for herd immunity is  1-0.187, or 81.3%.

 

So much for the "follow the science" President.

[Nanker]

He’s follow the money, no - GIVE me the money imposter President. 

[Ann]

1 hour ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

Wait...what?  How's that working?  Is NYS firing unvaccinated staff in private hospitals, too?  Did they change licensing requirements to include "must be vaccinated" or something?

I expect lawsuits. I also expect those people to move out of state where the will quickly be licensed, and find employment.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

7 minutes ago, Ann said:

I expect lawsuits. I also expect those people to move out of state where the will quickly be licensed, and find employment.

 

Didn't she announce a little while ago she was going to work with State to relax licensing requirements for immigrants looking for nursing work, to address the labor shortfall?  Wonder if those relaxed requirements include any sort of vaccination requirement.

 

I have never seen any politicians more interested in screwing over their constituency than the progressives of the modern Democratic Party.  

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

COVID vaccination policy in a nutshell.

 

 

 

Of course, most of the replies don't understand the difference between policy and science.