COVID-19 Viruses and Vaccines

[Spartacus]

9 hours ago, Taro T said:

 

As this is the 1st to actually get out of clinical trials, it is pretty presumptuous to say there WILL NOT be LT side effects.  The SARS vaccine never made it out of clinical trials, in no small part because it seemed to increase the likelihood of catching SARS after an initial infection.

 

 

major problem with the SARS jab was that the test subjects experienced organ failure when exposed to the native virus a 2nd time.

good thing the original native covid-19 has burned itself out

[Spartacus]

9 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Is there any medical basis for suggesting there could long term effects or is the point that the future is unknowable?

 

I have not read anything credible which suggests the mRNA based vax could have effects which would manifest years into the future.  Until I do this argument reads to me as fear for the sake of fear.

 

the long term effects you want concrete evidence for is what the 7-10 FDA testing period is for. 

 

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, Spartacus said:

the long term effects you want concrete evidence for is what the 7-10 FDA testing period is for. 

 

I am comfortable with the risk of long-term effects.  Its not me who is looking for this concrete evidence.  

 

I am looking for what reason people have for concern about long-term effects.  Which effects are they worried about and why they believe them to be likely since I am not aware of any long-term risks associated with the vaccine.  Everything I've read about the Covid vax and vaccines in general is that adverse effects would be known within 6 weeks and there have been zero cases in the history of vaccines where adverse effects manifested years down the road.  

 

 

[Fansince88]

41 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I am comfortable with the risk of long-term effects.  Its not me who is looking for this concrete evidence.  

 

I am looking for what reason people have for concern about long-term effects.  Which effects are they worried about and why they believe them to be likely since I am not aware of any long-term risks associated with the vaccine.  Everything I've read about the Covid vax and vaccines in general is that adverse effects would be known within 6 weeks and there have been zero cases in the history of vaccines where adverse effects manifested years down the road.  

 

 

It isn't the likelihood but the possibility or more so the lack of impossibility. While you may be ok with the long term risk many are not. Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments should ring a bell for many. In fact look at the African American numbers. I dont trust mankind anymore. 

[Ann]

32 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I am comfortable with the risk of long-term effects.  Its not me who is looking for this concrete evidence.  

 

I am looking for what reason people have for concern about long-term effects.  Which effects are they worried about and why they believe them to be likely since I am not aware of any long-term risks associated with the vaccine.  Everything I've read about the Covid vax and vaccines in general is that adverse effects would be known within 6 weeks and there have been zero cases in the history of vaccines where adverse effects manifested years down the road.  

There have been issues over the years with vaccines. The Polio vaccine for example, had a rough start. CNN article.  Swine flu vaccine had some issues, too. History channel article. Heck  the 2009 H1N1 vaccine had some problems.

Hard to blame people for not trusting a new vaccine. Can't blame them for not trusting the government. And to try and shame people or make people second class citizens for not getting a vaccine? Simply terrible.
 

[Fansince88]

3 minutes ago, Ann said:

There have been issues over the years with vaccines. The Polio vaccine for example, had a rough start. CNN article.  Swine flu vaccine had some issues, too. History channel article. Heck  the 2009 H1N1 vaccine had some problems.

Hard to blame people for not trusting a new vaccine. Can't blame them for not trusting the government. And to try and shame people or make people second class citizens for not getting a vaccine? Simply terrible.
 

Its a shame but this is the world and our country right now!

[Nouseforaname]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:41 AM, Jauronimo said:

That reason could be used not to take most drugs on the market.  I really don't think the same level of scrutiny is applied to all other pharma products.

 

As I understand it, there are zero instances in the history of vaccines where adverse side effects manifested years in the future.  The side effects of vaccines are known in the first month including the Covid vax.  This argument like many others is based on misinformation.  3+ billion doses have been administered over the past year.  Based on everything I've read, if there were nasty side effects we would have already seen them.

 

Buffalo Bill Tommy Sweeney developed myocarditis after having Covid.

 

The best argument against the vax at this point in the game is that it doesn't guarantee immunity so whats the point?  If the vax means I have higher chance of never contracting the disease, or mild symptoms if I do, and it virtually guarantees that I won't leave my widow with $250k in debt after a month long stay in the ICU, then I think its worth it.  

 

You don't have life insurance?

[Nouseforaname]

On 9/27/2021 at 12:06 PM, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

Just got back from the doctor, where I got a COVID booster.  Didn't need it...but I told them I specifically wanted to test this magnetism nonsense, and they were supportive. 

 

Applied a neodymium magnet to the site...and lo and behold, it stuck.  Put the same magnet on the same spot on my opposite shoulder, and it fell off.  Put a refrigerator magnet on the site, and it didn't stick. 

 

Also put pieces of plastic, paper, ceramic, wood, and non-ferrous metal on the site, and they all stuck.  Put them on the opposite shoulder, and they fell off.

 

Then swabbed the opposite shoulder with an alcohol wipe, just as the nurse did for the injection.  Put the neodymium magnet on it...it stuck, as did the plastic, paper, ceramic, wood, and metal.  

 

That's how you investigate a claim.  It's not magnetism, it's clean skin.

 

 

 

So not only are you a shill for the government because you claim to have actually witnessed a plane hitting the pentagon instead of a missile, now you're a shill for big pharma?

[Nouseforaname]

On 9/27/2021 at 6:47 PM, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

The percentage of people with immunity required for herd immunity is 1-(1/R₀).  The delta variant of COVID has an R₀ of as much as 9 (though probably closer to 6).  So the threshold for herd immunity is  1-0.187, or 81.3%.

 

So much for the "follow the science" President.

 

84% here have received two doses.  

[Jauronimo]

9 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

You don't have life insurance?

Shes not my beneficiary....

[Nouseforaname]

On 9/27/2021 at 8:58 PM, Jauronimo said:

I am comfortable with the risk of long-term effects.  Its not me who is looking for this concrete evidence.  

 

I am looking for what reason people have for concern about long-term effects.  Which effects are they worried about and why they believe them to be likely since I am not aware of any long-term risks associated with the vaccine.  Everything I've read about the Covid vax and vaccines in general is that adverse effects would be known within 6 weeks and there have been zero cases in the history of vaccines where adverse effects manifested years down the road.  

 

 

 

No one seems to care about long term effects from sitting on your ass all day in front of your computer posting on a bills message board about how Josh Allen was never accurate enough in college for the bills to win the super bowl.

[Nouseforaname]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

Shes not my beneficiary....

 

You could leave it to @Foxx so that he can keep the site up and running.

[Keukasmallie]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:59 AM, Taro T said:

 

This is not a typical vaccine (at least the non-J&J versions aren't).  Rather than simply putting some dead virus into your body and letting your immune system figure out how to deal w/ that "invader" this is the first mRNA approved vaccine which causes the body (specifically muscle tissue) to create the virus' spike protein to then enable the body to figure out how to deal w/ the invader.

 

As this is the 1st to actually get out of clinical trials, it is pretty presumptuous to say there WILL NOT be LT side effects.  The SARS vaccine never made it out of clinical trials, in no small part because it seemed to increase the likelihood of catching SARS after an initial infection.

 

We are in the midst of literally the world's largest beta trial ever.  Overall, things are looking positive.  But to claim we know the results of the trial prior to completing the trial seems a bit presumptuous.

 

 

And, to your 1st sentence, absolutely, & when we see how many drugs recalled every year, waiting to see how they work in others before taking them yourself is, barring an urgent condition, a wise choice.  IMHO.  YMMV.

 

As Adam Smith said:  "In the long run we'll all be dead."  I'm vaccinated against Covid and hoping for a smooth run until my turn for a dirt nap comes along.

 

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:59 AM, Taro T said:

And, to your 1st sentence, absolutely, & when we see how many drugs recalled every year, waiting to see how they work in others before taking them yourself is, barring an urgent condition, a wise choice.  IMHO.  YMMV.

 

The vast majority of drugs that are recalled aren't recalled because of newly discovered side-effect.  They're recalled because of manufacturing defects (including lack of sanitization).  And usually, only in specific lots.  The only two recalls I've found in the past five years that weren't for manufacturing defects were a topical lidocane cream that increased in potency with time, and an oral liquid that came with a measuring cup labeled in ounces but directions specifying milliliters.  Those are the sorts of things drugs get recalled for.    

 

Pharmaceuticals are actually some of the best investigated consumer products in the country.  I'd wager they're safer than fresh vegetables at the grocery store.  

[Nouseforaname]

23 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Monkey said:

 

The vast majority of drugs that are recalled aren't recalled because of newly discovered side-effect.  They're recalled because of manufacturing defects (including lack of sanitization).  And usually, only in specific lots.  The only two recalls I've found in the past five years that weren't for manufacturing defects were a topical lidocane cream that increased in potency with time, and an oral liquid that came with a measuring cup labeled in ounces but directions specifying milliliters.  Those are the sorts of things drugs get recalled for.    

 

Pharmaceuticals are actually some of the best investigated consumer products in the country.  I'd wager they're safer than fresh vegetables at the grocery store.  

 

Have you ever heard of a pharmaceutical product that was recalled because of increased magnetism?

[Nouseforaname]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:15 AM, Taro T said:

 

The biggest reason to not get the vaccine is that we still don't know the LT side effects (if any) & we won't know what they are for quite some time.  Heck, the application to get the Pfizer vaccine approved still has on going studies that won't be completed until 2023.  Haven't seen the Moderna nor J&J applications, but expect they have uncompleted trials undergoing as well.

 

We get shouted at that the vaccines are completely safe & that only selfish people won't get vaccinated and that if one isn't vaccinated then one should withdraw completely from society.  But there is no mention of how to handle the cases of individuals that are allergic to the various vaccines.  There also are very few studies on whether / how effective vaccines are for those who have been infected with COVID.  Have seen several reports that naturally acquired immunity is an order of magnitude or so more effective than the vaccine is.  Which seems very plausible, but haven't had an opportunity to research it fully myself.

 

There are also anecdotal reports of young people getting myocarditis (sp?) and other serious conditions from catching the virus & from getting the vaccine.  Would be nice to see actual hard data on those but so far those studies don't seem to be readily available.

 

With all that, it is understandable why some won't get the vaccine.  Would probably be more effective at getting those hesitant to take the jab to lay out the pros and cons in a non-emotional manner and not tell them they're pariahs if they don't get the jab , but that seems beyond our political leaders' and our mass media's capabilities. 

 

This is true but there's a lot of misinformation with regards to vaccines that seems to have coalesced around the COVID vaccine.  

 

I and many here seemed to have fell into the pro-vaccine while against forcing/ridiculing those that refuse it but while your arguments are fair, it's hard to ignore how far gone some are.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 hour ago, Meazza said:

 

Have you ever heard of a pharmaceutical product that was recalled because of increased magnetism?

 

No, but I did see one that was recalled because of rubber particles in an injection.  

 

Pharmaceutical research is very thorough.  Pharmaceutical manufacture...not so much.

[Taro T]

43 minutes ago, Meazza said:

 

This is true but there's a lot of misinformation with regards to vaccines that seems to have coalesced around the COVID vaccine.  

 

I and many here seemed to have fell into the pro-vaccine while against forcing/ridiculing those that refuse it but while your arguments are fair, it's hard to ignore how far gone some are.

 

The bolded applies on both ends of the spectrum.

 

And the level to which people pushing agendas (again, not just from one viewpoint) will distort at best & outright lie at worst is reprehensible.

 

The CDC should be releasing a lot more data than they are to let people actually figure stuff out on their own (at least for those few that are willi g to do so), but they don't.  Is that simply due to beaurocratic inertia/ incompetence, an attempt to keep from displaying how much things were not as portrayed, to keep from displaying how much things aren't as currently portrayed, some entirely different reason, or a little from all the choices?

 

Personally, am not anti-vaxx, but am not pro-vaxx either.  People should be given the best, most up-to-date information regarding the data for people within their own demographics (as varied as those are), and then be allowed to make a choice on what is best for them & include in that where herd immunity stands (or is believed to stand) for their communty & how their individual choice affects that.

 

The pro-vaxxers (in general) like to portray those that haven't gotten the jab as selfish pricks & they also like to view the questions on how open society should be at present purely in terms of COVID as being the only item that matters.  But there are so many more pieces to this exercise and the rest are being to far too large a degree ignored.

[Nouseforaname]

45 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

The bolded applies on both ends of the spectrum.

 

And the level to which people pushing agendas (again, not just from one viewpoint) will distort at best & outright lie at worst is reprehensible.

 

The CDC should be releasing a lot more data than they are to let people actually figure stuff out on their own (at least for those few that are willi g to do so), but they don't.  Is that simply due to beaurocratic inertia/ incompetence, an attempt to keep from displaying how much things were not as portrayed, to keep from displaying how much things aren't as currently portrayed, some entirely different reason, or a little from all the choices?

 

Personally, am not anti-vaxx, but am not pro-vaxx either.  People should be given the best, most up-to-date information regarding the data for people within their own demographics (as varied as those are), and then be allowed to make a choice on what is best for them & include in that where herd immunity stands (or is believed to stand) for their communty & how their individual choice affects that.

 

The pro-vaxxers (in general) like to portray those that haven't gotten the jab as selfish pricks & they also like to view the questions on how open society should be at present purely in terms of COVID as being the only item that matters.  But there are so many more pieces to this exercise and the rest are being to far too large a degree ignored.

 

What is often lost in all these discussions about choice is the reality that vaccines are a public health tool to battle as orange man in chief would say, an invisbile enemy.  If COVID was more lethal and as contagious as it is now, would you be against mandates?

[Koko]

14 hours ago, Meazza said:

 

No one seems to care about long term effects from sitting on your ass all day in front of your computer posting on a bills message board about how Josh Allen was never accurate enough in college for the bills to win the super bowl.

 

I'm fairly certain that any long-term issues with jock itch are completely justified in this circumstance.