Russia Russia Russia

[devnull]

Russia didn't blow up their own pipeline

The US did not blow up Russia's pipeline

 

But the US knows who did.  And whoever did this, did so with the tacit approval of the US

 

 

[Koko]

20 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

No shit. If Russia wanted to turn off the pipeline, they can flip a switch. No need to destroy their own infrastructure. 

 

 

The fact this is even being debated as a whodunit is peak establishment media dumbassery. 

 

Yeah, I'm kinda with Russia on this one. It's not logical that they 'sabotaged' the pipeline that they had already shut down.

 

The Russian government is a lot of things, irrational is not one of them.

[Nouseforaname]

45 minutes ago, Koko said:

 

Yeah, I'm kinda with Russia on this one. It's not logical that they 'sabotaged' the pipeline that they had already shut down.

 

The Russian government is a lot of things, irrational is not one of them.

So far the only accusations have come from commentators rather than politicians. 

[Deranged Rhino]

2 hours ago, Nouseforaname said:

So far the only accusations have come from commentators rather than politicians. 

 

So? We have multiple US officials on record stating the shutting down of NS2 was their desired goal and a stick to use in their toolbox to deter Russian aggression. Those aren't deep fakes. Those are real comments made by people who are actually pulling the trigger on operations in theater. 

 

But we should ignore that evidence because it makes us feel bad about ourselves to acknowledge our side does some dirty &#%$ing shit to get their way? How is that being objective? How is that being anything other than a victim of the narrative?

 

For example... None of the politicians commented on Trump/Russia for weeks and weeks outside of "this looks bad" - but the commentators did. The media and "expert" class of commentators were not only wrong, but deliberately and knowingly lied about it to frame Russia and set back relations YEARS. 

 

Something that is playing a direct role in the situation today as it has made finding a diplomatic solution all but impossible. 

 

Which, again, is what the US has wanted from the start. They don't want to save Ukraine. They don't want to even save Europe. Not more than they want to defeat Russia. There's an ocean's worth of difference between those agendas. The first two are noble and supportable. The latter is driven by greed, a lust for power, and reckless. 

 

3 hours ago, Koko said:

 

Yeah, I'm kinda with Russia on this one. It's not logical that they 'sabotaged' the pipeline that they had already shut down.

 

The Russian government is a lot of things, irrational is not one of them.

 

Exactly. 

 

I fully admit, understand, and acknowledge Russia and Putin are bad actors who've done dirty shit. A lot of dirty shit. That's not even in dispute. But there's always an agenda, a goal behind their moves - just as there are with our own dirty moves. But this particular chess move makes zero tactical, political, economic, or strategic sense. If anyone could give me one reason why Russia (or Putin) would do this, just one thing they could possibly hope to gain, I'd listen. 

 

But so far there's not even been an attempt to offer such a reason. What does this do for Russia? It doesn't make them a victim. It doesn't weaken their enemies any more than flipping a switch would. It doesn't suddenly make Russia innocent in the eyes of the world for the energy crisis gripping Europe. It does nothing but piss more people off that Russia would rather remain neutral or out of the situation all together. 

 

Now, you COULD make the case an enemy of Putin from inside Russia might want to run that gambit to pull off some sort of palace coup... but that requires a lot of supposition and guess work.

 

Then, on the other side, you have multiple US officials (in positions of actual power) who have stated on the record their plans and desire to do exactly this - and the benefits to their agenda is clear: they want to crush Russia and Putin, this gives them more propaganda and fodder to do so. It gives them an excuse to expand their influence within the conflict, propaganda to fuel more billion dollar traunches to Ukraine, and campaign fodder to run with on the trail. 

 

But it's "wild speculation" to objectively view the evidence and sequence of events somehow...

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

Obviously Ukraine has the most motive to do something like destroying the NS2...

 

 

 

But if they're the ones behind it, it means we are behind it. Since we literally own their government. 

 

 

"But that's not relevant to NOW!" /victims of the narrative.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

31 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Obviously Ukraine has the most motive to do something like destroying the NS2...

 

 

 

But if they're the ones behind it, it means we are behind it. Since we literally own their government. 

 

 

"But that's not relevant to NOW!" /victims of the narrative.

 

Actually, China has the most motive.  Then Turkey.  

[Koko]

44 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Obviously Ukraine has the most motive to do something like destroying the NS2...

 

 

 

But if they're the ones behind it, it means we are behind it. Since we literally own their government. 

 

 

"But that's not relevant to NOW!" /victims of the narrative.

 

Does Ukraine even have the capability (without us doing it for them)?

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

9 minutes ago, Koko said:

 

Does Ukraine even have the capability (without us doing it for them)?

 

No.  

 

I mean...theoretically, anyone could contract someone with a ship and a submersible to plant explosives.  Even Greenpeace.  We're not talking any remarkable technological capacity, like Trieste or Glomar Explorer.  Wouldn't need anything more than what was used to lay the pipeline to begin with.  But something like that would be nearly impossible to keep secret.

 

But natively, Ukraine doesn't have any combat ship left larger than a small Coast Guard cutter.  They have support ships that could do it - small diving support and hydrological research boats, currently used in riverine patrols - but nothing that could reach the Baltic without significant help, and would be instantly recognizable anyway (and they'd never get out of the Black Sea without the Russians sinking them.)

[snafu]

The first thing I thought with the pipeline thing was: What took so long?

Could it be that Eurpoe was just doing its best to stockpile for this coming winter, thinking they can make do beyond that -- and when they figured they have enough energy, it was okay to green light (an actor, whomever that may be) some sort of sabotage?

 

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 minute ago, snafu said:

The first thing I thought with the pipeline thing was: What took so long?

Could it be that Eurpoe was just doing its best to stockpile for this coming winter, thinking they can make do beyond that -- and when they figured they have enough energy, it was okay to green light (an actor, whomever that may be) some sort of sabotage?

 

 

 

That's a rather silly reason...but no sillier than most of the other reasons given.

 

Everyone with good motives has no ability; everyone with the ability has poor motives.  

 

And it's still mostly speculation in the face of what's mostly unknowns.

[Deranged Rhino]

54 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

Actually, China has the most motive.  Then Turkey.  

But what motive would there be for Russia? I sincerely am asking. 

[Deranged Rhino]

42 minutes ago, Koko said:

 

Does Ukraine even have the capability (without us doing it for them)?

We were training them and supplying them with underwater drones as recently as this summer. We’ve seen the Ukrainian forces perform sabotage operations throughout Crimea since this kicked off.  
 

So it’s likely a cut out situation. We give them the tech, teach them how it’s done. Then wipe our hands clean when the Ukrainians use them however they wish. 
 

 

[snafu]

21 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

That's a rather silly reason...but no sillier than most of the other reasons given.

 

Everyone with good motives has no ability; everyone with the ability has poor motives.  

 

And it's still mostly speculation in the face of what's mostly unknowns.

 

Well, the reason I'm thinking of is that it removes Russia's ability to play geopolitics with energy resources (at least with gas).

 

Here's another far fetched idea:  the Gas company, itself.  They were forced to do business in Rubles, so they were effectively prevented from hiding profits from the Government. Maybe its a sign that Putin's grip is weakening.

 

Could be prit'near anyone did this.

 

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

6 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Well, the reason I'm thinking of is that it removes Russia's ability to play geopolitics with energy resources (at least with gas).

 

Here's another far fetched idea:  the Gas company, itself.  They were forced to do business in Rubles, so they were effectively prevented from hiding profits from the Government. Maybe its a sign that Putin's grip is weakening.

 

Could be prit'near anyone did this.

 

 

 

I mentioned Turkey earlier.  They've got as solid a motive as anyone.  China, too - keep from competing with Western Europe for Russian gas supplies.  Those are no less silly theories than every other theory I've heard so far.

 

As far as motive is concerned: I'd sooner bet on the climate change crowd than anyone else.  They have a proven record of not giving a shit if people starve or freeze, and like I said earlier, this doesn't take much in the way of technology to pull off.  If you've got the money, you can hire someone to do this.  

 

Hell, it could be Halliburton, for all we know.  Or the Yakuza - with Hurricane Ian about to disrupt energy delivery through the southeast, why not cause further global disruption by damaging a major pipeline, to get back at Cheney for stealing their weather machine?  

[snafu]

8 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

I mentioned Turkey earlier.  They've got as solid a motive as anyone.  China, too - keep from competing with Western Europe for Russian gas supplies.  Those are no less silly theories than every other theory I've heard so far.

 

As far as motive is concerned: I'd sooner bet on the climate change crowd than anyone else.  They have a proven record of not giving a shit if people starve or freeze, and like I said earlier, this doesn't take much in the way of technology to pull off.  If you've got the money, you can hire someone to do this.  

 

Hell, it could be Halliburton, for all we know.  Or the Yakuza - with Hurricane Ian about to disrupt energy delivery through the southeast, why not cause further global disruption by damaging a major pipeline, to get back at Cheney for stealing their weather machine?  

 

 

Or Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

 

 

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

4 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

 

Or Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

 

 

 

I already referenced For Your Eyes Only somewhere (facetiously...but I admit, it shows an example of the level of technology required to sabotage these pipelines.)  I'm desperately trying to avoid referencing The World Is Not Enough, if only because Denise Richards as a nuclear physicist is the worst casting ever.

[snafu]

2 minutes ago, Crap Throwing Clavin said:

 

I already referenced For Your Eyes Only somewhere (facetiously...but I admit, it shows an example of the level of technology required to sabotage these pipelines.)  I'm desperately trying to avoid referencing The World Is Not Enough, if only because Denise Richards as a nuclear physicist is the worst casting ever.

 

I was in more of a Thunderball mindset for the underwater scenes.

Though The World is Not Enough does have its pipeline/energy terrorism storyline.  I guess that reference should be saved for the time when the Azerbaijani pipeline to Brindisi gets cut.

 

[Nouseforaname]

58 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

But what motive would there be for Russia? I sincerely am asking. 

What motive does Putin have for mobilizing 300,000 troops and effectively turning popular opinion in his own country against him? 
 

He stopped being a rational actor the minute he realized his 3 day special operation has been a 7 month cluster&#%$.

[Crap Throwing Clavin]

1 hour ago, Deranged Rhino said:

We were training them and supplying them with underwater drones as recently as this summer. We’ve seen the Ukrainian forces perform sabotage operations throughout Crimea since this kicked off.  
 

So it’s likely a cut out situation. We give them the tech, teach them how it’s done. Then wipe our hands clean when the Ukrainians use them however they wish. 
 

 

 

There is no way Ukraine is deploying an undersea drone to the Baltic.  

 

Outside of immediate Baltic countries, the non-Baltic countries that can project power in to the Baltic is short: the US, Britain, France, the Netherlands, Norway.  Maybe Spain and Canada.  Possibly Israel and Egypt, but they'd be really stretching their capabilities.  

[SackMan518]